Matrix Games Forums

From the "for what it's worth department", I have been doing a little reading lately (dangerous I know[:D]). I have come across the information that at the beginning of the war the Army and not the Navy were initially at Christmas and Canton Islands.

http://niehorster.orbat.com/013_usa/_41 ... istmas.htm

http://niehorster.orbat.com/013_usa/_41 ... canton.htm

The niehorster site is supported by other information from Glen Williford's "Racing the Sunrise" that these islands airfields were both under construction by detachments of the 804th Engineer Battalion (Aviation) and civilian construction groups and not ready to support aircraft.

There is a ton of pretty detailed additional information in the book of the pre and early war struggle to build-up, garrison and develop an aircraft ferry route in the So. Pacific routes to Australia. My fried HerrBear from here on the Forum turned me on to it and was willing to lend it to me but I rushed to buy it instead and it's definitely worth the price.

By the way the niehorster site appears to have had some good updates since the last time I had visited it, but maybe I just missed it the last time around.

Buck

Great website with amazing links. Not to mention all the books I have to buy now..... thanks Buck[:D]

ORIGINAL: oldman45

Great website with amazing links. Not to mention all the books I have to buy now..... thanks Buck[:D]

Really don't have to buy Niehorster's books unless they have a heck of a lot of more detail than what is indicated and available over the net. But even though I get a little confused with some of Williford's points of what was there and what was coming, it still has great info. Just as example: the bigger guns at Christmas initially were lent by the Navy and later replaced by typical Army weapons. The Army assisted in the garrisoning of Fiji in the early months of 1942. I don't yet know the units, I'll have to search Shelby's.

I have been trying to find where I can obtain some of John D.Bennett's articles on the defenses of various Pacific Islands.

Buck

ORIGINAL: oldman45

Great website with amazing links. Not to mention all the books I have to buy now..... thanks Buck[:D]

As I suspected that this is not new stuff to the Master Don Bowen who reported finding this book some time back.

tm.asp?m=2543557&mpage=1&key=Zero%2Cpilot%2Cinterviewed

Seems I am almost always late to the party.

Buck

ORIGINAL: Buck Beach

ORIGINAL: oldman45

Great website with amazing links. Not to mention all the books I have to buy now..... thanks Buck[:D]

As I suspected that this is not new stuff to the Master Don Bowen who reported finding this book some time back.

tm.asp?m=2543557&mpage=1&key=Zero%2Cpilot%2Cinterviewed

Seems I am almost always late to the party.

Buck

At least you do get to the party eventually.[:)] The invitations to the party for some of us always seem to get lost in the mail.[;)]

Alfred

ORIGINAL: Buck Beach

ORIGINAL: oldman45

Great website with amazing links. Not to mention all the books I have to buy now..... thanks Buck[:D]

Really don't have to buy Niehorster's books unless they have a heck of a lot of more detail than what is indicated and available over the net. But even though I get a little confused with some of Williford's points of what was there and what was coming, it still has great info. Just as example: the bigger guns at Christmas initially were lent by the Navy and later replaced by typical Army weapons. The Army assisted in the garrisoning of Fiji in the early months of 1942. I don't yet know the units, I'll have to search Shelby's.

I have been trying to find where I can obtain some of John D.Bennett's articles on the defenses of various Pacific Islands.

Buck

The Marine guns were to be from a Defense Battalion of the Pacific Fleet, but none were ever allocated. Christmas (and Canton) islands were only lightly defended until the units of the 102nd Infantry and assorted CD/AA batteries arrived. A couple of 75mm were sent down from Hawaii, and some MGs here and there.

Fiji was the 37th Infantry Division.

I'm still looking for the CD, AA, and support units at Christmas and Canton Islands. Sub-regimental units, at least some of which were detached from the units at Bora Bora. If you find anything, please post.

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen

ORIGINAL: Buck Beach

ORIGINAL: oldman45

Great website with amazing links. Not to mention all the books I have to buy now..... thanks Buck[:D]

Really don't have to buy Niehorster's books unless they have a heck of a lot of more detail than what is indicated and available over the net. But even though I get a little confused with some of Williford's points of what was there and what was coming, it still has great info. Just as example: the bigger guns at Christmas initially were lent by the Navy and later replaced by typical Army weapons. The Army assisted in the garrisoning of Fiji in the early months of 1942. I don't yet know the units, I'll have to search Shelby's.

I have been trying to find where I can obtain some of John D.Bennett's articles on the defenses of various Pacific Islands.

Buck

The Marine guns were to be from a Defense Battalion of the Pacific Fleet, but none were ever allocated. Christmas (and Canton) islands were only lightly defended until the units of the 102nd Infantry and assorted CD/AA batteries arrived. A couple of 75mm were sent down from Hawaii, and some MGs here and there.

Fiji was the 37th Infantry Division.

I'm still looking for the CD, AA, and support units at Christmas and Canton Islands. Sub-regimental units, at least some of which were detached from the units at Bora Bora. If you find anything, please post.

I know you probably have already seen this Don, some good info here on the islands pre and early war>

http://books.google.com/books?id=ChyilR ... II&f=false

It is a sampler from a book search.

Still would like to find the articles from the Coast Defense Journal dealing with the subject.

Buck

ORIGINAL: Buck Beach

http://books.google.com/books?id=ChyilR ... II&f=false

It is a sampler from a book search.

Still would like to find the articles from the Coast Defense Journal dealing with the subject.

Buck

Gordo's book is in my Library. He's also a member of another forum on TO&E and I've asked him for additional info but none is available.

There is anecdotal evidence that the artillery units on Canton (and Christmas) were not battalions but an assortment of individual batteries. They may have been drawn from the 99th FA battalion and 13th CA Regiment - portions of which were on Bora Bora. Another possibility is the 198th CA(AA) Regiment. Apparently the entire regiment went to Bora Bora but there is some (anecdotal) evidence of portions of the 198th being on Canton.

No other hint as to AA Units.

One more place I might look, but little hope I fear.

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen

ORIGINAL: Buck Beach

http://books.google.com/books?id=ChyilR ... II&f=false

It is a sampler from a book search.

Still would like to find the articles from the Coast Defense Journal dealing with the subject.

Buck

Gordo's book is in my Library. He's also a member of another forum on TO&E and I've asked him for additional info but none is available.

There is anecdotal evidence that the artillery units on Canton (and Christmas) were not battalions but an assortment of individual batteries. They may have been drawn from the 99th FA battalion and 13th CA Regiment - portions of which were on Bora Bora. Another possibility is the 198th CA(AA) Regiment. Apparently the entire regiment went to Bora Bora but there is some (anecdotal) evidence of portions of the 198th being on Canton.

No other hint as to AA Units.

One more place I might look, but little hope I fear.

Other question. If you were crazy like me, how would you break down the 804th Av Eng Bn to get the representation of that unit on Canton and Christmas at 1st turn? Companies, one at Pearl and 1 each on the other islands?

OK, here’s what I’d call anecdotal evidence.

The 198th CA(AA) Semi-Mobile Regiment landed on Bora Bora with 75 officers, 1 warrant officer, and 1330 men.

The TOE for a Semi-Mobile AA Regiment as of October, 1941 called for 98 officers, 1 warrant officer, and 2423 men. With attached medical personnel, that would be 107 officers, 1 warrant, 2478 men.

This TOE included two AA Battalions of 12 3” guns and one of 32 37mm guns, along with HQ and HQ Battery. Personnel of one 3” battalion would be 26 officers and 789 men. Detaching one 3” battalion would reduce the regiment to 81 officers, 1 warrant, 1689 men. This varies from the Bora Bora strength by 6 officers and 359 men.

With allowances for HQ and Medical personnel and a bit of a stretch for shortages here and there, it is possible that a full (or reinforced) AA battalion was detached from the 198th. Even more likely, individual batteries from multiple battalions and detachments from HQ battery, medical, etc. And possibly (even probably) send to Canton and/or Christmas.

A semi-mobile AA Regiment was given a new TOE on April 1, 1942. This rearranged the battalions to one 3” (16 guns), one 37mm (still 32 guns) , and a searchlight battalion with 20 searchlights (there were originally 15 in each of the two 12-gun 3” battalions). The 198th was probably aligned to this new TOE after it had deployed (which was in February, 1942). The 198th Regiment was moved to the Solomons area in 1943 and then was broken down in 1944 into the 736 AA Battalion (3” guns), 945th Auto-Weapons Battalion (37mm), and 373rd Searchlight Battalion.

I once found a personal history of a veteran that indicated service with the 373rd AA Battalion on Canton Island. This would probably be with a battalion (or battery) of the 198th as it would be prior to the breaking up of the regiment.

From all this, I conclude that it is likely that portions of the 198th AA Regiment were detached from the main unit and assigned to the Canton and Christmas Island garrisons. Most likely it would be battery sized detachments instead of a full battalion.

I have less information for the 13th CD Regiment. It’s 3rd battalion was sent to Bora Bora. The garrison data for Bora Bora lists the HQ and HQ Battery, 3rd Battalion, and Batteries F and H. I have no TOE for this type of Regiment so I do not know the batteries per battalion or if there should be a Battery G.

For the 98th FA Battalion, it is obvious that a battery is missing from the Bora Bora garrison. Only A and C were present there.

And, of course, the 102nd Infantry is well know. 2nd Battalion on Bora Bora, 1st Battalion on Christmas Island, and two companies (I and L) of the 3rd Battalion on Canton Island. Rest of 3rd Battalion left behind.

All in all it appears likely that the 13th CD, 98th FA, and 198th AA were all split up as was the 102nd. Now, if we just had exact details….

ORIGINAL: Buck Beach

Other question. If you were crazy like me, how would you break down the 804th Av Eng Bn to get the representation of that unit on Canton and Christmas at 1st turn? Companies, one at Pearl and 1 each on the other islands?

I am crazy like you.

As of December 7th, Christmas had 4 officers and 145 enlisted men of the 804th while Canton had 1 officer and 45 men. This looks like one company on Christmas with a single platoon detached to Canton.

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen

ORIGINAL: Buck Beach

Other question. If you were crazy like me, how would you break down the 804th Av Eng Bn to get the representation of that unit on Canton and Christmas at 1st turn? Companies, one at Pearl and 1 each on the other islands?

I am crazy like you.

As of December 7th, Christmas had 4 officers and 145 enlisted men of the 804th while Canton had 1 officer and 45 men. This looks like one company on Christmas with a single platoon detached to Canton.

Thanks. I find it difficult to go lower than companies.

I am at a point that my attention to micro details has resulted in my mod being a massive unorganized mess and I haven't played a lick because there is always something else to focus my attention on.


I have broken down the Alaskan units to represent dispersal of various companies, throughout the area. At one point I was trying to represent the USCG bases and stations on the West Coast as well as the various Marine Barracks detachments. Also allocated the historical units of the canal zone on a non-rotating basis. All this while trying to find every cotton pickin ship that ever put it's bow in the water during the war for both sides. Did I mention a restating of US merchant ship armament. It is all a big mess at the present with no end in sight because I become immediately exhausted and begin spacing out when I start to do the data work.

Think I'll write a book, "How not to enjoy a game experience" by Buck Beach

Buck

While I was closing my last rant I had a thought about those units/equipment that we know existed but have no details.  Could we (I) set up an equipped not designated "Garrison Force" representing those unknown units.  Just another crazy path to go down.

Buck

ORIGINAL: Buck Beach

While I was closing my last rant I had a thought about those units/equipment that we know existed but have no details.  Could we (I) set up an equipped not designated "Garrison Force" representing those unknown units.  Just another crazy path to go down.

Buck

Sure. I think Babes might do that. If not, my zygotes does.

As for the 804th, and if you think it's worth the trouble.

1. In the editor, temporarily redesignate it as an infantry division. This enables the split function.
2. Split it into three components. One for the main unit at Pearl, one for Christmas and one for Canton Islands and locate them there.
3. Adjust the devices in each to represent historical sizes.
4. Extract the scenario with AE load.
5. Manually edit the three units to adjust the TOE numbers so that they are in line with the current sizes.
6. Reload using AE Load.
7. Redesignate as EAB.
8. Beer seems appropriate at this point.

ORIGINAL: Buck Beach


Thanks. I find it difficult to go lower than companies.

I am at a point that my attention to micro details has resulted in my mod being a massive unorganized mess and I haven't played a lick because there is always something else to focus my attention on.


I have broken down the Alaskan units to represent dispersal of various companies, throughout the area. At one point I was trying to represent the USCG bases and stations on the West Coast as well as the various Marine Barracks detachments. Also allocated the historical units of the canal zone on a non-rotating basis. All this while trying to find every cotton pickin ship that ever put it's bow in the water during the war for both sides. Did I mention a restating of US merchant ship armament. It is all a big mess at the present with no end in sight because I become immediately exhausted and begin spacing out when I start to do the data work.

Think I'll write a book, "How not to enjoy a game experience" by Buck Beach

Buck

Welcome to my world. [:)]

In researching the US OOB for AE I tried . . . hard . . . not to go below battalion level. I generally succeeded. B Company of M3 Stuart tanks that went to Alaska, instead of with its battalion in the Philippines? You'll find it attached to the 4th (Sep) Infantry Regiment. The Philippine Scout company (depleted battalion) on Zamboanga is rolled into the regular PI infantry battalion. The Marine Defense Bn in San Diego includes a couple of extra batteries that were actually a separate unit. Since base forces have an 'inherent strength' of an infantry company and a battery of AA and CD guns, one can rationalize that any detached company-sized forces from other units are included in the BF at a base.

I had to break up one battalion in Alaska, otherwise a couple of bases would have had no troops. And, in retrospect, I wish I had scattered the Philippine Constalabury troops across Luzon, as they undoubtably were, instead of having the regiments mobilize en masse in Manila.

I thought adding the CPNAB units was a nice touch, and necessary -- the US lacks engineers before the Seabees arrive in strength. Don alerted me to my glitch of scoring the Air Force engineers as CPNAB. It was on my 'to fix' list, but I apparently lost the list, because I never did make the change.

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen

ORIGINAL: Buck Beach

While I was closing my last rant I had a thought about those units/equipment that we know existed but have no details.  Could we (I) set up an equipped not designated "Garrison Force" representing those unknown units.  Just another crazy path to go down.

Buck

Sure. I think Babes might do that. If not, my zygotes does.

As for the 804th, and if you think it's worth the trouble.

1. In the editor, temporarily redesignate it as an infantry division. This enables the split function.
2. Split it into three components. One for the main unit at Pearl, one for Christmas and one for Canton Islands and locate them there.
3. Adjust the devices in each to represent historical sizes.
4. Extract the scenario with AE load.
5. Manually edit the three units to adjust the TOE numbers so that they are in line with the current sizes.
6. Reload using AE Load.
7. Redesignate as EAB.
8. Beer seems appropriate at this point.

Thanks Don very much appreciated. I will try to used the info you have provided to further tweak my initial OOB, however, I must confess to only being an expert with number 8. I have some 54 years of hard core experience with that one and can stand big beer belly to big belly with any of you to prove it.

Thanks again for your insight.

Buck

I wish I had scattered the Philippine Constalabury troops across Luzon, as they undoubtably were, instead of having the regiments mobilize en masse in Manila.

If you would care to elaborate, I am all ears (and belly of course).

Seriously I would like to see what you had/have in mind.

Thanks

Buck

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen

ORIGINAL: Buck Beach

http://books.google.com/books?id=ChyilR ... II&f=false

It is a sampler from a book search.

Still would like to find the articles from the Coast Defense Journal dealing with the subject.

Buck

Gordo's book is in my Library. He's also a member of another forum on TO&E and I've asked him for additional info but none is available.

There is anecdotal evidence that the artillery units on Canton (and Christmas) were not battalions but an assortment of individual batteries. They may have been drawn from the 99th FA battalion and 13th CA Regiment - portions of which were on Bora Bora. Another possibility is the 198th CA(AA) Regiment. Apparently the entire regiment went to Bora Bora but there is some (anecdotal) evidence of portions of the 198th being on Canton.

No other hint as to AA Units.

One more place I might look, but little hope I fear.

What forum what that be please Don?

Canton was under joint British and American administration in 1941 under a condominium negotiated in April 1939. A seaplane base was built by Pan Am well before war broke out, and the lagoon was dredged for seaplanes. U.S. Army engineers were close to completing a 5000 foot (1520 meter) runway when war broke out, and the 78 engineers were the only garrison until 10 February 1942. On that date an 1100-man defense force was landed with some coastal artillery and antiaircraft guns, and a fighter and a light bomber squadron soon followed. Eventually the airfield was expanded to three runways.

Taken from this link...http://pwencycl.kgbudge.com/C/a/Canton_Island.htm

Sources cited were Frank...and Rottman.

Thought I would include this change of direction question here. I want to create a typical small Station Complements as reported were scattered with the Alaskan Defense Commands forts and posts. I want to assign them to those locations (Nome, Yakutat, Juneau, Seward, etc). Any help as to what devices to include? Presently I have various companies placed in those locations.

Buck