Matrix Games Forums

In a separate message thread, bjmorgan wrote:

ORIGINAL: bjmorgan

WITE is dedicated to the EF, so it models everything a little better in that theatre. Being an operational game, TOAW was stretched to the breaking point to recreate the EF. I played the hell out of the various versions of FITE, including D21, but they always were forced to compromise reality too much because of limitations of the engine. For example, the mud turns never really worked out all that well in TOAW. (Cease fire just doesn't cut it for me.) The scenario designers did a wondeful job with what they had to work with, but the engine was just too limiting.

I have never played FITE or any of the other East Front TOAW scenarios.

Would anybody elaborate, please, on how TOAW fails to model East Front weather accurately? Precisely what game subsystems are missing, are off the mark, and/or are just not sufficiently adaptable to the needs of that situation?

Next question: If inadequate weather modelling is such a Big Deal in TOAW, why wasn't fixing this a high priority issue long before now?

(I bring up weather here, because for example in the Burma Campaign scenario, weather is or should be a Very Big Deal. From the Scenario Briefing, I don't see that it is. The monsoon season effectively shut down most movement and combat operations for 4+ months out of every year during the actual Burma Campaign. In the game, during the monsoon season, player(s) should have very little to do. Like FITE mud turns, but much more so.)

Never played a monster like FITE, but the weather for Burma '44 can be adjusted with a few events, like in 'Last stand in Africa' where the mud season really is annoying and grinds everything to a halt. Had a look at the evenets at Burma '44 by any chance?

kLiNk, Oberst

Would anybody elaborate, please, on how TOAW fails to model East Front weather accurately?

It doesn't. Everyone has opinions. I respect Mr. Morgan's, but disagree. Maybe it would be fair for me to ask how WITE does it better. I haven't played it so I don't know, but its difficult for me to imagine that after a couple hundred years of strategic simulations, someone has come up with something new.

ORIGINAL: Oberst_Klink

Never played a monster like FITE, but the weather for Burma '44 can be adjusted with a few events, like in 'Last stand in Africa' where the mud season really is annoying and grinds everything to a halt. Had a look at the evenets at Burma '44 by any chance?

As is, "out of the box," I consider the HPS American Civil War game series to be unplayable. The AI in those games is atrocious. More importantly, HPS ACW fails to model well or at all important aspects of Civil War battles. IMO game play is far from realistic or historical. (As always, Your Mileage May Vary.) I can't bear the thought of abandoning those games. So I mod them.

By now, I accept that no game is perfect. That with the possible exception of WITP:AE (which has a fanatically devoted and expert without parallel designer/modder/player community to carry it forward), I have to mod games to my liking. Else just give them up.

I am trying not to give up on TOAW. Gosh, I don't know where I can find the time, but maybe I'll have to take up modding TOAW too. [X(]

Thanks for your tip about weather in the Last Stand in Africa scenario. I'll give it a close look.

Let's play the first 10-15 turns of LSA and you'll experience the frustration of the weather

kLiNk, Oberst

P.S. Co. K, 45th PVI and done a few re-enactments and tacticals in the late 90s in the USA. Including the 135th G'burg,PA aniversary :)Used to play the SSI ACW series on the C=64, as well as CGW and AoR.

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

Would anybody elaborate, please, on how TOAW fails to model East Front weather accurately?

It doesn't. Everyone has opinions. I respect Mr. Morgan's, but disagree. Maybe it would be fair for me to ask how WITE does it better. I haven't played it so I don't know, but its difficult for me to imagine that after a couple hundred years of strategic simulations, someone has come up with something new.

Don't have WitE, too. But from what i've read it does pretty much the same that Directive 21 does. Combat gets ineffective, supply radius is lowered. Or say, at least the effects are similar. In D21 there is negative shock which stops most battles, part of the formations freeze due to reorg and those that don't can't do much (see the screenshot how this looks in the field). Additionally force supply is reduced, too. No cease fire needed, this setup virtually stops all operations and supply at the front is terrible. (i'm no fan of cease fires like in EA and FitE, too). Essentially the same setup like in LSA.

ORIGINAL: Telumar
... Combat gets ineffective, supply radius is lowered. Or say, at least the effects are similar. In D21 there is negative shock which stops most battles, part of the formations freeze due to reorg and those that don't can't do much (see the screenshot how this looks in the field). Additionally force supply is reduced, too. No cease fire needed, this setup virtually stops all operations and supply at the front is terrible. (i'm no fan of cease fires like in EA and FitE, too). Essentially the same setup like in LSA.

Seems like I should take a close look at Directive 21's weather events, too.

I've begun looking into all of this.

My suspicions seem to be confirmed: There are no extraordinary weather-related events in the Burma Campaign scenario, just effectless news items. This is not good. Campaigning should effectively shut down during the monsoon season from late May through early November. In no way does the scenario simulate this.

I've looked into the LSA and D21 scenarios too for inspiration.

Some questions:

Are there ways (on specified trigger dates) to, for example: Halve MPs for all units? Double the MP cost of off-road movement? Triple the MP cost of mountain movement? Make all rivers effectively like major rivers? Lower readiness across all units? Increase the cost in readiness of moving? And so on. And in all cases (on specified trigger dates) apply their inverses?

Maybe I should move this discussion over to the Scenario Design forum?

ORIGINAL: berto

I've looked into the LSA and D21 scenarios too for inspiration.

Some questions:

Are there ways (on specified trigger dates) to, for example: Halve MPs for all units? Double the MP cost of off-road movement? Triple the MP cost of mountain movement? Make all rivers effectively like major rivers? Lower readiness across all units? Increase the cost in readiness of moving? And so son. And in all cases (on specified trigger dates) apply their inverses?

Maybe I should move this discussion over to the Scenario Design forum?

Well, maybe you should rather post in the Wishlist thread.

There are features in the engine that would allow some of the desired effects, but sadly they are a rather of the 'get them all' category. I mean they can only be applied scenario wide and cannot be changed during the course of the scenario. These are:

- Movement Bias
- Readiness Cost for Movement
- Supply Coast for Movement

If these, and the other editor variables, could be changed by event a lot would be won. If these effects could be applied to a certain designer defined map area, leaving other areas unaffected, it would be even better.

Make all rivers effectively like major rivers

Not possible, but i believe changeable terrain is on the wishlist. Doesn't mean it will be implemented, though.

ORIGINAL: Telumar

...

great looking map. what mod is that?

ORIGINAL: berto
...
My suspicions seem to be confirmed: There are no extraordinary weather-related events in the Burma Campaign scenario, just effectless news items. This is not good. ...

Old issue with TOAW scenarios. Most are not tested at all other than by the author, so people embark in them only to discover they are completly broken and worthless.

ORIGINAL: jmlima

ORIGINAL: Telumar

...

great looking map. what mod is that?

Personal modification - only available on my HD [:D] The idea was a synthesis between classic and 3.4 graphics plus blurry wood graphics (inspired by the WITE look of woods). I think i will upload it to my site when i have the hills and mountains done. Here's an other view in better quality:

Definitively want that one!

ORIGINAL: jmlima

Definitively want that one!

Not with those squared... "things"...