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When will Panzer IIIn get used?
Posted: Thu May 05, 2011 4:43 pm
by Aditia
So, I am in turn 17 of a 43-45 PBEM and one thing that is really starting to annoy me is the fact that I have 250 PzKw IIIn's in the pool, while my frontline units are desperately short of AFV's. Will these tanks ever get used or is this a bug? I am playing v1.03
RE: When will Panzer IIIn get used?
Posted: Thu May 05, 2011 5:47 pm
by traemyn
See
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2767769&mpage=1&key=
Note that I am not saying its NOT a bug but its possible to have those sitting in the pool according to how the game models production.
RE: When will Panzer IIIn get used?
Posted: Thu May 05, 2011 5:54 pm
by Helpless
It is not about production, but the way TOE(OB) is done. Pz-IIIn is CS type tank and can't be substituted for other types. Probably not many units has this type in OOB at the moment.
RE: When will Panzer IIIn get used?
Posted: Thu May 05, 2011 6:00 pm
by Aditia
ORIGINAL: Helpless
It is not about production, but the way TOE(OB) is done. Pz-IIIn is CS type tank and can't be substituted for other types. Probably not many units has this type in OOB at the moment.
I understand what you are saying, but I don't understand what you are trying to say =P Is this as intended or not? And yes, I know it is a CS tank, which is why I was hoping it would filter to infantry divisions since I am very low on StuG's
Also, the gun of the IIIn does have anti-armor capabilities by firing HEAT ammo
RE: When will Panzer IIIn get used?
Posted: Thu May 05, 2011 6:01 pm
by Helpless
Is this as intended or not?
yes
RE: When will Panzer IIIn get used?
Posted: Thu May 05, 2011 6:03 pm
by heliodorus04
What's a "CS type" tank?
What rationale drives the game mechanic that sees an armored division's worth of state-of-the-art tanks lying at their factory locale back in Germany? (This mechanic is certainly of no value to the German army. What's the historical basis of such a mechanic is what I'm getting at.)
And while production system as a whole is something I basically consider PFM (pure f****ng magic), this is primarily from lack of effort on my part. How do you have 250 of a tank that you have no capacity to build? Is that an off-map factory production element?
RE: When will Panzer IIIn get used?
Posted: Thu May 05, 2011 6:10 pm
by Helpless
What's a "CS type" tank?
Counter Strike
RE: When will Panzer IIIn get used?
Posted: Thu May 05, 2011 6:28 pm
by Aditia
ORIGINAL: Helpless
What's a "CS type" tank?
Counter Strike
LOL
RE: When will Panzer IIIn get used?
Posted: Thu May 05, 2011 6:31 pm
by Aditia
ORIGINAL: heliodorus04
What's a "CS type" tank?
What rationale drives the game mechanic that sees an armored division's worth of state-of-the-art tanks lying at their factory locale back in Germany? (This mechanic is certainly of no value to the German army. What's the historical basis of such a mechanic is what I'm getting at.)
And while production system as a whole is something I basically consider PFM (pure f****ng magic), this is primarily from lack of effort on my part. How do you have 250 of a tank that you have no capacity to build? Is that an off-map factory production element?
1. Close Support
2. According to the game the things did not get used I guess. Pretty sure that is wrong....
3. It was being produced uptil summer 1943. Production ceased on turn 4 or so. Want to buy one? They are all in brand new condition!
EDIT: if this is working as intended, well, all I can do is make a monkey face and continue to soldier on in my game. I have to say it feels pretty dumb to see 90% of my infantry divisions without AFV (StuG losses are horrific) and seeing 250 infantry tanks being used to parade around the Champs Elysee
RE: When will Panzer IIIn get used?
Posted: Thu May 05, 2011 6:41 pm
by Helpless
I meant it works as intended form the code perspective. The fact the Germans don't have appropriate OB to utilize CS Tanks in beyond 1943 is outside of my competence. Hopefully Jim will answer this.
Stugs are assault guns and can't be substituted by CS tanks. We tried to create all kind of exceptions, but then it leads to much worse anomalies.
RE: When will Panzer IIIn get used?
Posted: Thu May 05, 2011 6:47 pm
by heliodorus04
ORIGINAL: Helpless
I meant it works as intended form the code perspective. The fact the Germans don't have appropriate OB to utilize CS Tanks in beyond 1943 is outside of my competence. Hopefully Jim will answer this.
Stugs are assault guns and can't be substituted by CS tanks. We tried to create all kind of exceptions, but then it leads to much worse anomalies.
Would be awesome to find a way to shove them into use, though. Germans need all the workable tanks they can find. Hell, even lend-lease to Romania might be better than leaving them idle.
RE: When will Panzer IIIn get used?
Posted: Thu May 05, 2011 7:33 pm
by Montbrun
That sounds like a faux pas - The Pz.IIIn was used as a main combat tank.
RE: When will Panzer IIIn get used?
Posted: Thu May 05, 2011 7:52 pm
by Mynok
The IIIn? With the short 75? Surely by main combat tank you don't mean an anti-armor role, because it was grossly unsuited for that. Wasn't the whole point of the IIIn to use up PzIII chassis and free up PzIV chassis for the G and H models?
Infantry support tanks were still used, but stug's were cheaper to build. And probably more useful.
RE: When will Panzer IIIn get used?
Posted: Thu May 05, 2011 7:56 pm
by Mynok
ORIGINAL: Aditia
EDIT: if this is working as intended, well, all I can do is make a monkey face and continue to soldier on in my game. I have to say it feels pretty dumb to see 90% of my infantry divisions without AFV (StuG losses are horrific) and seeing 250 infantry tanks being used to parade around the Champs Elysee
If Stug losses are bad, IIIn losses would be much worse.
RE: When will Panzer IIIn get used?
Posted: Thu May 05, 2011 7:58 pm
by Aditia
ORIGINAL: Mynok
ORIGINAL: Aditia
EDIT: if this is working as intended, well, all I can do is make a monkey face and continue to soldier on in my game. I have to say it feels pretty dumb to see 90% of my infantry divisions without AFV (StuG losses are horrific) and seeing 250 infantry tanks being used to parade around the Champs Elysee
If Stug losses are bad, IIIn losses would be much worse.
better burning in russia than using up precious storage space
RE: When will Panzer IIIn get used?
Posted: Thu May 05, 2011 11:38 pm
by TAIL_GUNNER
The Germans never had a CS type tank designation in their unit orgs.
Battle tanks were either light, medium, or heavy....Panzer IV and IIIn were always designated mediums.
Type 'CS' should be done away with...unless there's something in the code for this identifier?
RE: When will Panzer IIIn get used?
Posted: Thu May 05, 2011 11:44 pm
by AKCLIMBER
The handling of production and distribution of equipment can certainly be frustrating. I'm on turn 166 (August, 1944) of a GC vs Soviets and I've got 296 Tigers, 95 King Tigers, 94 Jagdpanthers and 70 Hetzers in my pool. I could certainly use them up on the line. At least some units are using the Tigers, Jagdpanthers and Hetzers but none of my pixel panzer truppen seem interested in taking possession of those Tiger IIs, even tho my Gorky and Rostov lines are beginning to crumble.
RE: When will Panzer IIIn get used?
Posted: Fri May 06, 2011 1:26 am
by TAIL_GUNNER
ORIGINAL: AKCLIMBER
The handling of production and distribution of equipment can certainly be frustrating. I'm on turn 166 (August, 1944) of a GC vs Soviets and I've got 296 Tigers, 95 King Tigers, 94 Jagdpanthers and 70 Hetzers in my pool. I could certainly use them up on the line. At least some units are using the Tigers, Jagdpanthers and Hetzers but none of my pixel panzer truppen seem interested in taking possession of those Tiger IIs, even tho my Gorky and Rostov lines are beginning to crumble.
Ran some numbers on the Tiger production numbers in the game..
Production runs from 7/42 - 12/44 = 125 weeks (why does the editor say 150 weeks??)
Factory in Kassel produces 9 per week, so 9 * 125 = 1125
As "free" reinforcements you get another 230 Tigers.
Grand total = 1355
Historical production was 1347 machines.
This is why the numbers are so high...it seems the game is producing for ALL theaters, even though the focus should only be the East Front.
I wonder if this is intentional?
RE: When will Panzer IIIn get used?
Posted: Fri May 06, 2011 3:29 am
by Mynok
ORIGINAL: TAIL_GUNNER
The Germans never had a CS type tank designation in their unit orgs.
Battle tanks were either light, medium, or heavy....Panzer IV and IIIn were always designated mediums.
Type 'CS' should be done away with...unless there's something in the code for this identifier?
I don't know enough to say whether the designation is true or not, but the
design is clear: they were infantry support tanks and not anti-armor ones. The short 75 was useful in many ways, but not for killing armor.
RE: When will Panzer IIIn get used?
Posted: Fri May 06, 2011 3:31 am
by AKCLIMBER
ORIGINAL: TAIL_GUNNER
ORIGINAL: AKCLIMBER
The handling of production and distribution of equipment can certainly be frustrating. I'm on turn 166 (August, 1944) of a GC vs Soviets and I've got 296 Tigers, 95 King Tigers, 94 Jagdpanthers and 70 Hetzers in my pool. I could certainly use them up on the line. At least some units are using the Tigers, Jagdpanthers and Hetzers but none of my pixel panzer truppen seem interested in taking possession of those Tiger IIs, even tho my Gorky and Rostov lines are beginning to crumble.
Ran some numbers on the Tiger production numbers in the game..
Production runs from 7/42 - 12/44 = 125 weeks (why does the editor say 150 weeks??)
Factory in Kassel produces 9 per week, so 9 * 125 = 1125
As "free" reinforcements you get another 230 Tigers.
Grand total = 1355
Historical production was 1347 machines.
This is why the numbers are so high...it seems the game is producing for ALL theaters, even though the focus should only be the East Front.
I wonder if this is intentional?
Nice work. [&o] That certainly seems to make sense.