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PT boat usage
Posted: Sun May 08, 2011 3:25 am
by pmt411@cox.net
I am playing a more advanced player. It is early January 1943. I lauchned a surpise attack to take back Norfolk Island in the South Pacific and retook it. He holds New Zeland and Noumea and bombs any resupply or reinforcement ships I send. He has landed troops on the island in a counter invasion. I built a squadron of PT boats in Sydney and had them accompany a cargo fleet to resupply Lord Howe Island. I then after resupply at Lord Howe, moved them and stationed them at Norfolk Island to help repel his naval reinvasion attempt at Norfolk Island. He has informed me that this isnt done by players as PT boats cannot be used this way and may not put to open sea and must only be used in coastal hexes by general agreement of the players on this board. I dont think my actions are unreasonable, but want to be fair and have searched the board for some discussion in the threads of this but cant find any answers. Is this the general understanding of most players on a consenus limitation on the use of PT boats?? I would welcome any help in this matter.
RE: PT boat usage
Posted: Sun May 08, 2011 3:34 am
by thegreatwent
I don't see any issue with escorting PT Boats to where they are needed. Historically MacArthur wouldn't have gotten away if they couldn't go to sea[:)]. Unless there is a house rule in your game precluding their use outside coastal hexes or being escorted I don't see a problem. Actually as the Allied player I would protest any such rule.
RE: PT boat usage
Posted: Sun May 08, 2011 5:49 am
by findmeifyoucan
This is war. You can do what ever your ships allow you to do! lol
If you don't like what your enemy is doing then it is your job to figure out how to stop it with the resources you have available to you.
RE: PT boat usage
Posted: Sun May 08, 2011 7:07 am
by pmath
If the game mechanics allow for it then it is up to the opponent to offer a compelling argument. I see no reason the Allies couldn't have done what you did with your PTs. A lot of Jap Fan Boys don't want the Allied player doing anything that wasn't actually done in the war. On the other hand they have no problem starting the game parked over Pearl for a week.
RE: PT boat usage
Posted: Sun May 08, 2011 7:26 am
by gwozdziu12
Bollocks. Right now I'm playing downfall, and trust me - IJN's MTB (and shinyo's) are one of the most deadliest weapon in this scenario (so far I've lost 2 CVE in night battles against them). I don't see any reason why lunching pt boats missions over open sea hexes should be forbidden. Unless it was one of your HR.
RE: PT boat usage
Posted: Sun May 08, 2011 10:43 am
by EUBanana
ORIGINAL:
pmt411@cox.net
He has informed me that this isnt done by players as PT boats cannot be used this way and may not put to open sea and must only be used in coastal hexes by general agreement of the players on this board.
[&:]
I dont think my actions are unreasonable, but want to be fair and have searched the board for some discussion in the threads of this but cant find any answers. Is this the general understanding of most players on a consenus limitation on the use of PT boats?? I would welcome any help in this matter.
Heh, thats why, news to me.
Its also nonsense. You can make PT boats in remote locations after all, all you need is enough supply. How do you think the PTs got to Lunga in the first place? Over the Pacific, right? [;)] How will PTs get to Lord Howe Island?
...over the Pacific, right?
In an AKs hold, or towed along by an AK, makes little difference it seems to me.
RE: PT boat usage
Posted: Sun May 08, 2011 11:20 am
by Smeulders
It is very poor form of your opponent to appeal to a "general concensus" that doesn't exist.
RE: PT boat usage
Posted: Sun May 08, 2011 12:29 pm
by crsutton
Yep, he is totally out of line and you can refer him to this thread.
PT boats were generally transported on the decks of larger merchant ships and were sent anywhere they were found useful. It is unlikely that they would have been sent to Norfolk Island as I don't think there is hardly any harbors around the Island and the ocean is deep blue water all around. PTs really were more suited to calmer waters. However, in game terms I use them at any base and would not hesitate to use them at Norfolk. I think most players here would say the same.
Diplomacy is really nothing more than convincing others into doing things that are not in their best interest.....[;)]
RE: PT boat usage
Posted: Sun May 08, 2011 1:58 pm
by Rob Brennan UK
Considering you created those PT Boats in a major harbour and then escorted them into the combat area , I salute you for playing fairly and very reasonably. Personally i don't ever just make magic PT boat squadrons out of coconut trees and sand.
As for using them in deep water , indeed bollocks is a good epithet to describe that. Using them to move when out of fuel and paddle across the pacific is out of line and now heavily penalized fortunately.
Maybe your opponent thought you created them in situ and that's what prompted his comments, if so then his assumption was wrong and you should let him know how you got them there.
Sounds like the Allies have a hard road ahead in your game , all the more fun imo. I wish both you and your opponent the very best for an enjoyable game.
RE: PT boat usage
Posted: Sun May 08, 2011 8:54 pm
by Alfred
ORIGINAL:
pmt411@cox.net
I am playing a more advanced player. It is early January 1943. I lauchned a surpise attack to take back Norfolk Island in the South Pacific and retook it. He holds New Zeland and Noumea and bombs any resupply or reinforcement ships I send. He has landed troops on the island in a counter invasion. I built a squadron of PT boats in Sydney and had them accompany a cargo fleet to resupply Lord Howe Island. I then after resupply at Lord Howe, moved them and stationed them at Norfolk Island to help repel his naval reinvasion attempt at Norfolk Island. He has informed me that this isnt done by players as PT boats cannot be used this way and may not put to open sea and must only be used in coastal hexes by general agreement of the players on this board. I dont think my actions are unreasonable, but want to be fair and have searched the board for some discussion in the threads of this but cant find any answers. Is this the general understanding of most players on a consenus limitation on the use of PT boats?? I would welcome any help in this matter.
This issue has often been discussed in the past. Have a look at this link which is fairly representative of the views held by many regular forumites.
tm.asp?m=2653233&mpage=1&key=boat%2Ccreation
Alfred
RE: PT boat usage
Posted: Sun May 08, 2011 10:26 pm
by Disco Duck
An interesting video of the manufacture of the PT boat is on Utube.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z8tQP3s9DIQ
It states the boats ran into the tail end of hurricane in tests between Cuba and the Keys.
RE: PT boat usage
Posted: Mon May 09, 2011 4:59 am
by LoBaron
Good vid Disco Duck!
To me this looks like there had to be a lot of shipyard around to manufacture
the boats from scratch.
Any opinions what the base size should be to create PT boats at the base without
acting gamey?
RE: PT boat usage
Posted: Mon May 09, 2011 6:09 am
by Durbik
ORIGINAL: gwozdziu12
Bollocks. Right now I'm playing downfall, and trust me - IJN's MTB (and shinyo's) are one of the most deadliest weapon in this scenario (so far I've lost 2 CVE in night battles against them). I don't see any reason why lunching pt boats missions over open sea hexes should be forbidden. Unless it was one of your HR.
Hey, one of those CVE's succumbed due to courtesy of Sensuikan, not the PT boats. Don't take credit from my sub force (after all, it was their only hit in the scenario!) [:D]
RE: PT boat usage
Posted: Mon May 09, 2011 11:22 am
by USSAmerica
ORIGINAL: LoBaron
Good vid Disco Duck!
To me this looks like there had to be a lot of shipyard around to manufacture
the boats from scratch.
Any opinions what the base size should be to create PT boats at the base without
acting gamey?
I honestly think any port level is sufficient. They were manufactured IRL at shipyards, etc, and then loaded onto AK's for their trip to forward bases. The game simulates this by "creating" them from supply at the forward base. Think of it as the PT's being unloaded from the AK as part of the supply/cargo, and then they are put into operation.
RE: PT boat usage
Posted: Mon May 09, 2011 1:46 pm
by LoBaron
Basically I see it the same way as you.
The only difference to reality is that with the assembling abstracted into supply consumption you can move the same hulls around the map
within 2 weeks (disassembling back to pool, recreate somewhere else). Not sure if should influence our point of view.
Some time ago I thought about a HR which prevents disassembling PTs except for major ports. Not sure whether this makes sense though.
RE: PT boat usage
Posted: Mon May 09, 2011 3:53 pm
by Rob Brennan UK
just my opinion , but I'd say at any base that had a shipyard (of any size) , and working. Maybe a size 9 with ARD/AR and plenty of Naval support could do it but best to keep it simple and just use yards.
RE: PT boat usage
Posted: Mon May 09, 2011 5:07 pm
by LoBaron
Good idea old friend. We could discuss this as a HR addon.
RE: PT boat usage
Posted: Mon May 09, 2011 5:38 pm
by treespider
Not that I've tried, but is it not possible to lump the PT's into an escort TF with an xAK and schlep them from base to base thataway? I do not see any evil in that, assuming that your not setting up a PT base in the middle of the North Pacific using the aAK ...
RE: PT boat usage
Posted: Mon May 09, 2011 5:50 pm
by LoBaron
Yes its possible and definitely not gamey. If we implement a HR like Rob proposed it would also be the only way to pull
PTs back to harbours with a repair yard for disbanding and relocation.
RE: PT boat usage
Posted: Mon May 09, 2011 7:33 pm
by crsutton
ORIGINAL: LoBaron
Good vid Disco Duck!
To me this looks like there had to be a lot of shipyard around to manufacture
the boats from scratch.
Any opinions what the base size should be to create PT boats at the base without
acting gamey?
No size, building PTs use supply. This can represent that the boats were delivered to the base at an earlier date and then assembled later and fitted out for combat. You can make a HR but I find it is not really necessary and the more HR there are in a game the more arguments arrive later. Besides PT boats at a level 0 base cannot refuel or replenish so that would limit their use there.