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I am not sure I well understood this part of the game. There are the BAK Long Range Commands, attached to Stavka ITSELF. And they are supposed to be always attached to this HQ. But, who will they be supporting? In theory x Army, attached to x Front should only be supported by x Air Command attached to this x front.

So what are these BAK Long Range bases supposed to do?

How do you use them exactly? And what planes do you assign to them? Only level bombers? Fighters too?

And the PVO command. They provide CAP, ok. But to whom?

I don't get those answers from the manual, will be interested to see what the answers are...

for PVO these are régionnale protection
from memory some for Leningrad Front, Moscow MD and some others
they do follow command attachment

for the BAK you have possibility to attach to another Front

Marquo has a similar thread going. I am also trying to understand this.

To repeat what I said in Marquo's thread, I'm not sure how it is supposed to work, but in my AI game I was watching some of my defensive battles and there seemed to be lines going from Stavka airunits to a battle in which NW Front units were defending, which to me indicates that they are providing ground support to the defenders (although I'm not certain). I will keep watching this for further developments, but it can be hard to see because often the airbases are off map, blocked by the combat resolution box, etc.

Same for Stavka PVO units--they seem to attack German interdiction attacks, for instance, within their range, but am not sure if they participate in defensive/offensive GS. At least for game purposes, however, I doubt that some Stavka airbases would perform some roles and other Stavka airbases would not, I expect that they all act the same.

If I did much offensive bombing (airbases, units, etc.) I personally would stock these units with level bombers and use them for those missions. I have never gotten decent results from this kind of bombing, however, so generally have stopped doing it.

Lately I have been taking these and other Stavka airbases and assigning them to fronts which become available without any air bases.

Would love to hear what other people are doing, because I am just "winging it".

ORIGINAL: 76mm

Would love to hear what other people are doing, because I am just "winging it".

Same here. As the Soviets, I just put my airbases within reasonable range of the front and hope they (or the AI) will be doing their job. Ehh... come to think of it, that's what I do with the Germans too. I want to move big tank units and stuff, not bother with micromanaging the air force, and it's worked fairly well so far. But still, it would be interesting to know what I should do to get the most out of my air force and the different kinds of airbases (the BAD, the SAD and the UGLY [:D]).

Yes ...this is a big mystery and it should not be. From the manual:

"Soviet air group units are limited to providing ground support to battles involving combat units that are attached to a headquarters unit that is in a chain of command that ultimately reports to the same Front headquarters unit as the air group unit’s air base unit chain of command."


1. IIRC, the new rule in version 1.04 states that air units from different fronts will not participate in the same offensive or defensive mission. Now, is this all missions or only ground support?
2. If WAD as per the manual, this would imply that the BAK, PVO, Moscow Defense and STAVAK air units could fly all the missions except ground support together with each other and Front air units. Such that interception, ground unit attack, recon, fighter missions, etc, - everything but ground support.
3. Hopefully the word, "mission" in the new rule really means "ground support." This may still be a problem since the wording states offensive or defensive missions. This would mean that if a Western Front unit was attacked, then PVO or STAVKA air units should not be able to offer ground support... +/- fighter supporter as fighter interception is not ground support?
4. And then there is the issue of mixed stacks. What is a stack has units from 2 different fronts and is attacked or attacks...will this trigger air support from air units reporting to the 2 fronts...or what?

I can't recall seeing any of these Front - independent units do anything (all the bases end the turn with all their MPs) unless I manually perform mission such as ground unit or air base attack.

I am really confused and would appreciate some clarification, I guess we all would. [&:]

Marquo [:)]

Hi guys,
 
Been speaking to Pav on this to get to the bottom of it!
 
This is how it should work:
 
For GS it depends upon the nearest staging base to the ground combat. For example, even if units are attached to Volkhov Front (in Ground Combat), if the nearest staging airbase is from LG Front then air units from there will participate. This is the same on attack and defence.
 
For interceptions it's based upon range not on stagign base or air command. So in theory you can have fighters involved from multiple air commands dependent on fighter range as to what could be committed.

But what about Stavka air units?

From what you say, it sounds like they will provide support to Stavka ground units or to other units if their airbase is the closest?

The manual is a little misleading on this issue to say the least...

In theory if the nearest staging airbase to a particular attack is attached to Stavka then they should provide support to that particular ground attack.

As for CAP they should potentially fly to any other other location that is within range.

The manual is a little 'old' on this one as this code was added recently IIRC.

Please see my post above - you guys were too quick  [:)]

I guess the conclusion is to put Stavka bases as far forward as possible?

"For GS it depends upon the nearest staging base to the ground combat. For example, even if units are attached to Volkhov Front (in Ground Combat), if the nearest staging airbase is from LG Front then air units from there will participate. This is the same on attack and defence."
 
If so, this is concentually difficult to understand. This means that LG Front air would support the VF ground units, but the VF Front Air would not help it's own ground units. If so, then this is not good representation of chain of command and combined arms coordination. VF air should coordinate with it's own units with a penalty for being further away in terms of miles flown, etc.
 
BTW, this brings up another question: are air units' miles flown reset to zero at the end of the owner's turn so they participate fully on the defense when the opponent is attacking? Or if I burn my air units up in my move/attack phase, does this used mileage penalize me during my defensive phase? Hopefully the latter.
 
Marquo   

76mm - depends on the situation. You'll want them (fighters) to cover a wise area so I range them from front to back.
 
The good thing with organising your airbases with regard to air commands (rather than leaving them attached to STAVKA) is that it gives you more control of what flys where. For example if I know I'm going to commence a big attack somewhere next turn and I want to ensure a lot of IL-2's I'll make sure a particular air commands bases are nearest etc. If it was all attached to STAVKA the AI could send anything anywhere (in theory) for GS missions.
 
Marquo - manual is out of date on first part in that it is NOT dependent on air commands and ground units being from same HQ (I am lobbying Pav that it SHOULD be like this rather than what it is now)
 
1.) Just GS. For interceptions you could in theory have CAP particpating from different air commands.
 
This should also help answer 2, 3 and 4.

ORIGINAL: Marquo

"For GS it depends upon the nearest staging base to the ground combat. For example, even if units are attached to Volkhov Front (in Ground Combat), if the nearest staging airbase is from LG Front then air units from there will participate. This is the same on attack and defence."

If so, this is concentually difficult to understand. This means that LG Front air would support the VF ground units, but the VF Front Air would not help it's own ground units. If so, then this is not good representation of chain of command and combined arms coordination. VF air should coordinate with it's own units with a penalty for being further away in terms of miles flown, etc.

BTW, this brings up another question: are air units' miles flown reset to zero at the end of the owner's turn so they participate fully on the defense when the opponent is attacking? Or if I burn my air units up in my move/attack phase, does this used mileage penalize me during my defensive phase? Hopefully the latter.

Marquo   

Agree on your first part. Am hoping Pav may look at this.

2nd Q - not sure. Will check for you.

Checked - mileage is reset at the end of your turn and at the end of your opponents turn.

I have been watching my ground battles fairly closely, and its very difficult to see who is adding ground support etc. I will admit that my campaign game has morphed through all of the patches, so maybe my experiance has been hampered by that fact, however, the PVO and BAK bases have not been participatiing like they should.

I have had all the PVO and BAK bases in the Moscow area, since late June of 41 (we are in Sep 42 now). Originally they were all assigned to STAVKA, but were not flying cap missions or ground support. Out of frustration, I attached them all the Moscow MD (the same front as defenders I wanted them to support). However, they have still not been supporting as much as I would have thought, if at all. I recently looked at the PVO and BAK units to see the ground kills and air kills and they have none. Now that could just be other issues, like the Germans are still shooting Soviets planes out of the skies in droves and incurring no losses them selves, but that's another issue entirely that seems to be happeneing even in late 42 in my game.

If there is going to be a change, I would like to see the air bases attached to the specific fronts add their ground support to the battles their associated ground units participate in. For cap, it should be anything in range. Finally, the BAK attached to STAVKA should also hit anything in range, so thus could support different Fronts. Only reasoning being that I expect that's were most people put their long range bombers.

So far I have been totally ignoring the BAK and PVO bases (almost the end of the blizzard on my PBEM game). But I want to put them to good use. I guess the BAK thing should get long range level bombers. Given that there are I think 4 BAK Air Commands I could for example put one in the north (grosso modo to cover the Leningrad and Volkhov Fronts); one or two in the center (to cover the Northwest, Kalinin and Western Fronts) and one in the south, to cover the Bryansk, Southwestern and Southern Fronts.

As for the PVO thing, you have few. I guess they should be more or less around Moscow and Leningrad to protect the installations in both cities? [&:]

Okay, I'm really effing lost about Soviet air command structure.

BAK, VVS, PVO, S&M, I can't keep track because I've never looked as closely at air organization as this game makes me for the Soviets (so much easier for Germans).

Can somebody do 1 of 2 things for me:
Either map the org structure visually on a tree like a corporate org chart
OR
Explain to me how to do so (who is at the top, who's underneath, and so on down the chain) and I will try to make that graphic, which I'll show and get feedback on so I can improve it.

Please! I can't figure out why 150 of my fighters can escort a 'bomb unit' mission but only 1 bomber group can be assigned. And this is in my 1.03 game!~

I am not sure its complicated enough to need a graph. Its really just the abreviations that need to be learned. Although I could be wrong, as I have still not been able to get the Red AF to perform well.

Each air base is attached to a air command. Then each air command is attached to a Front or STAVKA. Some air commands can be attached to higher air commands.

VVS- these are special air bases that allow transport flights to partisans. I usually put night flight transport, night bombers and recon in them.

PVO - air defense bases for fighters. Here is where opinions differ and things start going badly. It seems, and I thought, that thse bases only fly cap missions. But they may allow escourts etc Put fighters in them, but it is not very clear yet if they have restrictions and limitations other than being just fighter bases.

IAB - fighter bases.

IAD - bigger fighter bases

BAB - bomber bases

BAD - bigger bomber bases

SAD - utility bases, I put a little of everything in them, some fighters, some bombers and some ground attack along with a recon. They also get disbanded over time.

DBAD - long range bombers base

TBAB - heavy bomber base

OSNAZ - "special use air group" not sure what it does special if anything.

ShaD - ground attack bases

BAK - bomber aviation corps

Hope that helps.

Heliodorus, most of the names are chrome. I follow the nomenclature because I am an organization freak. The recon and transport groups should be in the VVS thing though.

IAD: fighters
SAD: tactical bombers
BAD: level bombers
VVS: "service" aka recon and transport (night mission to supply partisans).

Be aware of this: on 1942, each turn the computer will disband one or more SAD base. All the planes of this disbanded base will be sent to the National Reserve.

EDIT: these are the bases you will mostly see in 1941. I haven't received for example ShaD bases yet.