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The 65th Brigade Division
Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2011 12:06 pm
by el cid again
There was a peculiar formation - it was green and its commander did not expect much of it - which invaded Northern Luzon
and made military history. This is the 65th Brigade. One thing very strange about it is that it is NOT a binary formation,
but a triangular one! That is, it has three "regiments" - although these are two battalion formations rather than the usual
three. Again, one can have the right number of squads, but it takes a trick to show how it subdivides for operations.
I classify it as a division - and put "brigade" in its name.
Thus we get The 65th "Brigade" Division - so players can see it divides into three parts - but know its name as well.
Both this trick - and the "Division" Brigade one - were suggested by Joe Wilkerson long ago - and I think adapted by Nemo for his
mod, and by CHS - and certainly by me for RHS. Possibly I have that wrong - it may have been a suggestion on the Forum
brought to my attention by Joe. Regardless, while I use these tricks, I did not invent them. Game designers and modders
are shameless about using good suggestions - and that is a quote from JF Dunnigan - who made a lot of money using good ideas
that were not originally his. I would have thought that this was well understood in the game community - and that stating one uses
an idea is not the same as taking credit for something one didn't think of in the first place. But it seems some do not know this is
the SOP of "all good designers" (Dunnigan again) - and so I will try to insure credit goes to the source - if I can remember who that was?
I am not interested in taking credit for ideas - only in sharing them.
RE: The 65th Brigade Division
Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2011 12:11 pm
by el cid again
Possibly a bigger problem with the 65th in stock is that it lacks the unusual attachments.
Most interesting of these is what is probably the first fielded unit using 75 mm SP Guns.
But in other respects, this unit is misrepresented too weakly - so it will be hard for it
to do in the game what it did in real life. In fact, at one point, it is the ONLY unit in the line
vs about a hundred thousand Allied soldiers - at that point it has about 2000 effectives -
but the Allies probably have none at all (100% are infected with malaria and denge fever).
Still - it is remarkable that the unit could be the cork in a bottle containing two CORPS!
If it only had the few squads in the stock OB, it probably could not have done.
RE: The 65th Brigade Division
Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2011 12:31 pm
by DuckofTindalos
Yes, because it's SO hard to tell a 6,000-man brigade from a 20,000-man division...[8|]
The IJA had no problem with it: they designated it 65 Ryodan, which just means 65th Brigade.
RE: The 65th Brigade Division
Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2011 1:07 pm
by US87891
I believe you have the right of it Mr. Terminus. 65th Brigade was an Infantry Brigade Group Headquarters with 122nd, 141st, 142nd Infantry Regiments under command. It was an ordinary Infantry Brigade Group with no divisional elements assigned. All component infantry units were understrength. An ad-hoc artillery battalion was formed by combining the regimental gun companys into a separate unit under command of Major Asano, Nagamisu. It is an ordinary understrength Infantry Brigade Group in every way.
Mat
RE: The 65th Brigade Division
Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2011 5:56 pm
by herwin
ORIGINAL: US87891
I believe you have the right of it Mr. Terminus. 65th Brigade was an Infantry Brigade Group Headquarters with 122nd, 141st, 142nd Infantry Regiments under command. It was an ordinary Infantry Brigade Group with no divisional elements assigned. All component infantry units were understrength. An ad-hoc artillery battalion was formed by combining the regimental gun companys into a separate unit under command of Major Asano, Nagamisu. It is an ordinary understrength Infantry Brigade Group in every way.
Mat
As I seem to recall, each Japanese triangular infantry division had a single infantry brigade group controlling the infantry assets of the division. That makes it hard to figure out the difference...
RE: The 65th Brigade Division
Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2011 10:45 pm
by el cid again
ORIGINAL: US87891
I believe you have the right of it Mr. Terminus. 65th Brigade was an Infantry Brigade Group Headquarters with 122nd, 141st, 142nd Infantry Regiments under command. It was an ordinary Infantry Brigade Group with no divisional elements assigned. All component infantry units were understrength. An ad-hoc artillery battalion was formed by combining the regimental gun companys into a separate unit under command of Major Asano, Nagamisu. It is an ordinary understrength Infantry Brigade Group in every way.
Mat
This is certainly the evaluation of its commander, who noted his troops were green, and he told his superiors not to expect much of the unit.
But it is not what happened. It turned out to be superior to the forces it met, and if the troops lacked confidence to start with, it did not take
long to gain it. The key to its success, in part, was likely it had three separate regimental staffs, and these were not overburdened with lots of
units to control. Each could take off in a different direction - and there was nothing in the league of IJA in the area (except the Philippine Scouts,
the one US Army regular regiment and a US Marine "regiment" of battalion size) - so they could be effective. Regardless of the paper strength of
its opponents. It is the only instance I know of where a single brigade ended up facing two corps in the line, for a couple of months, and did not
end up on the losing end of the deal.
In any case, the trick works - if defined as a division - this brigade can break into three (admittedly weak) component elements.
RE: The 65th Brigade Division
Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2011 4:49 pm
by inqistor
ORIGINAL: Terminus
Yes, because it's SO hard to tell a 6,000-man brigade from a 20,000-man division...[8|]
German 716 Infanterie-Division, which defended FOUR beachheads in Normandy, had ration strength of 7771, on 1st May 1944.
711 Infanterie-Division, which stationed east of 716, and fought with British Paratroopers, had 7242 soldiers on 1st May 1944, and was actually 373 men over strength.
ORIGINAL: US87891
65th Brigade was an Infantry Brigade Group Headquarters with 122nd, 141st, 142nd Infantry Regiments under command.
Definition of Brigade is:
Self-sustaining combat unit, consisting of few battalions, and support arms.
It provides command for all battalions.
If they had sub-command of Regiment, it is quite questionable Brigade. If it consisted of THREE Regiments, and support arm (SP artillery), that fulfill ALL requirements, to call this unit Division.
RE: The 65th Brigade Division
Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2011 8:27 pm
by herwin
ORIGINAL: inqistor
ORIGINAL: Terminus
Yes, because it's SO hard to tell a 6,000-man brigade from a 20,000-man division...[8|]
German 716 Infanterie-Division, which defended FOUR beachheads in Normandy, had ration strength of 7771, on 1st May 1944.
711 Infanterie-Division, which stationed east of 716, and fought with British Paratroopers, had 7242 soldiers on 1st May 1944, and was actually 373 men over strength.
ORIGINAL: US87891
65th Brigade was an Infantry Brigade Group Headquarters with 122nd, 141st, 142nd Infantry Regiments under command.
Definition of Brigade is:
Self-sustaining combat unit, consisting of few battalions, and support arms.
It provides command for all battalions.
If they had sub-command of Regiment, it is quite questionable Brigade. If it consisted of THREE Regiments, and support arm (SP artillery), that fulfill ALL requirements, to call this unit Division.
You would have loved the square divisions--two brigades of two regiments each. Japanese triangular divisions had an infantry brigade with three regiments and an artillery brigade of whatever artillery they had.
RE: The 65th Brigade Division
Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2011 8:25 am
by Kereguelen
ORIGINAL: el cid again
There was a peculiar formation - it was green and its commander did not expect much of it - which invaded Northern Luzon
and made military history. This is the 65th Brigade. One thing very strange about it is that it is NOT a binary formation,
but a triangular one! That is, it has three "regiments" - although these are two battalion formations rather than the usual
three. Again, one can have the right number of squads, but it takes a trick to show how it subdivides for operations.
I classify it as a division - and put "brigade" in its name.
Thus we get The 65th "Brigade" Division - so players can see it divides into three parts - but know its name as well.
Both this trick - and the "Division" Brigade one - were suggested by Joe Wilkerson long ago - and I think adapted by Nemo for his
mod, and by CHS - and certainly by me for RHS. Possibly I have that wrong - it may have been a suggestion on the Forum
brought to my attention by Joe. Regardless, while I use these tricks, I did not invent them. Game designers and modders
are shameless about using good suggestions - and that is a quote from JF Dunnigan - who made a lot of money using good ideas
that were not originally his. I would have thought that this was well understood in the game community - and that stating one uses
an idea is not the same as taking credit for something one didn't think of in the first place. But it seems some do not know this is
the SOP of "all good designers" (Dunnigan again) - and so I will try to insure credit goes to the source - if I can remember who that was?
I am not interested in taking credit for ideas - only in sharing them.
(1) 65th Brigade did not 'invade Northern Luzon', it landed at Lingayen Gulf January 1st, 1942.
(2) The Brigade was indeed a green formation, its regiments had been raised in October 1941.
(3) It had three infantry regiments with 2 battalions each.
(4) It was basically organized as an [understrength] infantry group (similar to infantry groups found in Japanese divisions at this time).
(5) It had been formed to provide garrison/police forces for the PI.
(6) It was located on Formosa when the Pacific War begun.
(7) It was send to Luzon to replace 48th Division (which was needed elsewhere) because the Japanese had underestimated the remaining US/Philippino troop strength.
(8) It was reinforced with one infantry regiment (20th, I think) from 16th Division and some artillery and tank units (from 14th Army HQ assets) before send to the Bataan front line (the rest of 16th Division was committed shortly afterwards because 65th Brigade was too weak).
(9) It went into action on January 11th, 1942.
(10) It's combat performance was not that impressing. It took heavy losses in January 1942 and was not combat-ready again until April 3rd, 1942 (after the arrival of replacementsn to fill out its depleted infantry regiments).
(11) To take Bataan in April 1942, 14th Army was reinforced with 4th Division, a reinforced infantry regiment (from 21st Division, located in Indochina) and heavy artillery assets.
(12) I have no idea, what purpose the creation of a 'The 65th Brigade Division' should have in the AE. Doesn't make any sense at all!
RE: The 65th Brigade Division
Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2011 8:29 am
by Kereguelen
ORIGINAL: el cid again
There was a peculiar formation - it was green and its commander did not expect much of it - which invaded Northern Luzon
and made military history. This is the 65th Brigade. One thing very strange about it is that it is NOT a binary formation,
but a triangular one! That is, it has three "regiments" - although these are two battalion formations rather than the usual
three. Again, one can have the right number of squads, but it takes a trick to show how it subdivides for operations.
I classify it as a division - and put "brigade" in its name.
Thus we get The 65th "Brigade" Division - so players can see it divides into three parts - but know its name as well.
Both this trick - and the "Division" Brigade one - were suggested by Joe Wilkerson long ago - and I think adapted by Nemo for his
mod, and by CHS - and certainly by me for RHS. Possibly I have that wrong - it may have been a suggestion on the Forum
brought to my attention by Joe. Regardless, while I use these tricks, I did not invent them. Game designers and modders
are shameless about using good suggestions - and that is a quote from JF Dunnigan - who made a lot of money using good ideas
that were not originally his. I would have thought that this was well understood in the game community - and that stating one uses
an idea is not the same as taking credit for something one didn't think of in the first place. But it seems some do not know this is
the SOP of "all good designers" (Dunnigan again) - and so I will try to insure credit goes to the source - if I can remember who that was?
I am not interested in taking credit for ideas - only in sharing them.
(1) 65th Brigade did not 'invade Northern Luzon', it landed at Lingayen Gulf January 1st, 1942.
(2) The Brigade was indeed a green formation, its regiments had been raised in October 1941.
(3) It had three infantry regiments with 2 battalions each.
(4) It was basically organized as an [understrength] infantry group (similar to infantry groups found in Japanese divisions at this time).
(5) It had been formed to provide garrison/police forces for the PI.
(6) It was located on Formosa when the Pacific War begun.
(7) It was send to Luzon to replace 48th Division (which was needed elsewhere) because the Japanese had underestimated the remaining US/Philippino troop strength.
(8) It was reinforced with a infantry regiment (20th, I think) from 16th Division and some artillery and tank units (from 14th Army HQ assets) before send to the Bataan front line (the rest of 16th Division was committed shortly afterwards).
(9) It went into action on January 11th, 1942.
(10) It's combat performance was not that impressing. It took heavy losses in January 1942 and was not combat-ready again until April 3rd, 1942 (after the arrival of replacementsn to fill out its depleted infantry regiments).
(11) To take Bataan in April 1942, 14th Army was reinforced with 4th Division, a reinforced infantry regiment (from 21st Division, located in Indochina) and heavy artillery assets.
(12) I have no idea, what purpose the creation of a 'The 65th Brigade Division' should have in the AE. Doesn't make any sense at all!
RE: The 65th Brigade Division
Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2011 4:36 pm
by inqistor
ORIGINAL: Kereguelen
(12) I have no idea, what purpose the creation of a 'The 65th Brigade Division' should have in the AE. Doesn't make any sense at all!
Obviously whole topic is about letting this unit, to be divided into THREE sub-unit. Thats all [:D]