Matrix Games Forums

I've seen some internet sources that state that 3 Liberty ships per day were being produced by war's end. Granted, this is the internet, and I don't always believe what I see.

Since I have very limited access to actual books, can anyone with a reliable number confirm or deny the figure of 3 per day, and if that is incorrect, give me an actual number?

Also, this is due to me extended the time frame of the game a bit, so even given the actually numbers...with the abstraction of the game, how many AKs and TKs per week/month would be a good guideline for additional hulls given to the Allied and Japanese sides?

The following abbreviated information comes from "Amphibious Operations in the South Pacific in WWII, Vol 3, Pacific Express The Critical Role of Military Logistics in World War II" Edited by William L. McGee (and wife). This is a consolidation of sort from many other books and sources (including official records) relating to subject matter.

Chapter One "Ships for Victory". In this chapter it has a table of Vessels Delivered in U.S Maritime Commission Program between 1939 and 1945, By contract (Maritime, Private, Foreign) and By Type of Ship.

Types:
Standard Cargo (Passenger and Cargo) 541
Emergency Cargo (Liberty) 2,708
Victory Cargo 414
Tankers 705
Minor Types 727
Military Types 682
Total 5,777

If you can pop for the dinero, I recommend this book. It has a ton of information to cross to other sources. Of particular interest to me within the book was the armament and armed guards of the ships.

Anyway, it is up to others to question the accuracy of the book, I'm not that smart.

Buck

The record for construction of a Liberty ship was 30 days - although it was staged as a propaganda stunt -
and had to have more than usual workers all of them experienced - and other measures to make it possible.
Delivery rates were not uniform, and vary over time. If memory serves, by late in the war, Liberty ship
production was in decline relative to where it once had been - and Victory ship production was substantially
replacing it. On top of that, as it became clear the war was no going to last as long as had been planned,
numbers of ships of all types were cancelled. That should be looked at to figure out what the rate WOULD
have been IF the war was going badly? Surely in that case, production would have continued at a higher pace
near the end of the historial war date wise.

I would not be surprised that 3 were built a day considering the number of yards that were building them. I doubt that 3 a day was the norm but I have no doubt that once a week 3 came off the slips somewhere [;)]

ORIGINAL: oldman45

I would not be surprised that 3 were built a day considering the number of yards that were building them. I doubt that 3 a day was the norm but I have no doubt that once a week 3 came off the slips somewhere [;)]

3 a week does sound more reasonable. 3 x 6 x 4 = 72 over six months. And it makes sense, in that the US was actually slowing production and canceling orders on many ship types by 1945.

72 extra ships isn't that big of a game changer, but it does prevent no reinforcements coming online for the last 6 months of the game if it goes that far.

I doubt Allies will be short on transport ships in 1946, and will be building more.

Just check what was available in ETO, and when it arrived with cargo on East Coast. Add around 2-3 weeks, and made it available in Pacific.

Of course, if you DO not assume, that war in Europe is still raging.

You might be intersted in this site, they show the production dates for all ships built by the US Maritine Commission. http://www.usmm.org/ships.html

ORIGINAL: inqistor

I doubt Allies will be short on transport ships in 1946, and will be building more.

Just check what was available in ETO, and when it arrived with cargo on East Coast. Add around 2-3 weeks, and made it available in Pacific.

Of course, if you DO not assume, that war in Europe is still raging.

There were more available, they did arrive after May of 1945. Still you had the army of occupation in Germany even if the war went historically, as well as starting to bring some of the troops home, or even moving them for battle in the Pacific theatre. You would still have cargo ships tied up in the ETO and Atlantic.

ORIGINAL: el cid again

The record for construction of a Liberty ship was 30 days - although it was staged as a propaganda stunt -
.

Actually Cid..., the record was a bit over 4 days at one of the Kaiser Yards. Though you are right about the publicity stunt nature of the achievement.

ORIGINAL: Shark7

3 a week does sound more reasonable. 3 x 6 x 4 = 72 over six months. And it makes sense, in that the US was actually slowing production and canceling orders on many ship types by 1945.

2700+ Liberty Ships produced in 4 years gives an average of about 13 per week. Add in Victory Ships and tankers and all the other types of vessels the Maritime Commission was building and 3 per day is probaably dead on.

ORIGINAL: mike scholl 1

ORIGINAL: Shark7

3 a week does sound more reasonable. 3 x 6 x 4 = 72 over six months. And it makes sense, in that the US was actually slowing production and canceling orders on many ship types by 1945.

2700+ Liberty Ships produced in 4 years gives an average of about 13 per week. Add in Victory Ships and tankers and all the other types of vessels the Maritime Commission was building and 3 per day is probaably dead on.

But for game purposes, what do you think about adding a few more past the stock end date? 3 E2C and V2Cs, and maybe 2-3 T2s? Per Week that is.

A time ago, John E directed me to http://www.coltoncompany.com/ which has a ship building history section. Among many other things, it lists data each of the 2718 Liberty ships by name and sequentially by hull number. The tables list the yard, the dates for keel, launch, delivery and columns for days on ways, days in water, total days. Tables can be imported into spreadsheet programs for calculations. Oregon Shipbuilding built over 180 Liberty ships in 30 total days or less from keel to delivery, and 225 in 40 total days or less. Permanente-1 and Permanente-2 were not far behind in terms of efficiency. If you are good with plotting programs, you can plot the daily, weekly, monthly output of all shipyards, or shipyards on the east, west, gulf, great lakes coasts, or shipyards individually.

When yards were establishing themselves, construction time was 3-4 times longer. The most efficient period was 1943. Design and fitting changes raised the construction times in 1944 until they became an approximately uniform 50-55 days in 1945.

ORIGINAL: Shark7

ORIGINAL: inqistor

I doubt Allies will be short on transport ships in 1946, and will be building more.

Just check what was available in ETO, and when it arrived with cargo on East Coast. Add around 2-3 weeks, and made it available in Pacific.

Of course, if you DO not assume, that war in Europe is still raging.

There were more available, they did arrive after May of 1945. Still you had the army of occupation in Germany even if the war went historically, as well as starting to bring some of the troops home, or even moving them for battle in the Pacific theatre. You would still have cargo ships tied up in the ETO and Atlantic.

Well, you do not need to use ALL of them. There will be quite lots of transport ships from Germany/Italy for local transport duty.

Also, the hardest part...
you actually HAVE TO get names for ALL those new ships [:D]

So it will be better to use already existing.

Penant or hull numbers will work in a pinch.

If the war hadn't ended in 1946, then the US would not have quit producing vessels. You would need to keep up production to counter attrition if nothing else.

ORIGINAL: Shark7
If the war hadn't ended in 1946, then the US would not have quit producing vessels. You would need to keep up production to counter attrition if nothing else.

But the question is not IF produce, but WHAT to produce?
USA prepares to invade Japan Mainland. Obviously they would need more Assault Ships, and Landing Crafts. Also, Kamikaze is serious problem, so CLAAs, and escort ships should be produced. Last thing they need now, is some cheap, slooooow transport ships, of which they have quite a lot already.

If any normal transport would be needed, you have to travel half of the globe, to deliver cargo, so they should concentrate on fast transports.

ORIGINAL: inqistor

ORIGINAL: Shark7
If the war hadn't ended in 1946, then the US would not have quit producing vessels. You would need to keep up production to counter attrition if nothing else.

But the question is not IF produce, but WHAT to produce?
USA prepares to invade Japan Mainland. Obviously they would need more Assault Ships, and Landing Crafts. Also, Kamikaze is serious problem, so CLAAs, and escort ships should be produced. Last thing they need now, is some cheap, slooooow transport ships, of which they have quite a lot already.

If any normal transport would be needed, you have to travel half of the globe, to deliver cargo, so they should concentrate on fast transports.

What I included:

-Haskell class APAs
-LST IIs
-EC2 Liberty Ships
-VC2 Victory Ships
-T2 Tankers
-Dominion M cargo ships
-LCMs and LCIs

Balancing speed of ship versus speed of getting it off the slips.

As far as warships, those were easy enough, as enough had been cancelled to keep production going far into 1947 at nominal build rates

The Allies ended up with something like another 18 carriers, 6-8 heavy cruisers, a dozen or so light cruisers, 8 or 10 CLAAs, and destroyers (including additional Gearing class DDs that are optimized for AAA). None of these are fictional, just cancelled ships or ships that were queued but not ordered in the end. Granted my numbers here are educated guesses, since I am at work and do not have my info in front of me, but you can see that I did think this through before committing to it. [;)]

ORIGINAL: Shark7
As far as warships, those were easy enough, as enough had been cancelled to keep production going far into 1947 at nominal build rates

Well, if you are THAT good, it is possible to set pilot replacement up to 1948. In last game year, you will probably not need any extra not-fully trained pilots, so it is probably possible to make game up to 1949 (or 1948 if it crashes because lack of pilot replacement field).

Now try to do THAT Scenario!

ORIGINAL: inqistor

ORIGINAL: Shark7
As far as warships, those were easy enough, as enough had been cancelled to keep production going far into 1947 at nominal build rates

Well, if you are THAT good, it is possible to set pilot replacement up to 1948. In last game year, you will probably not need any extra not-fully trained pilots, so it is probably possible to make game up to 1949 (or 1948 if it crashes because lack of pilot replacement field).

Now try to do THAT Scenario!

Well, I'm not going that far. Just giving a little extra time for a chance at using some of the neater stuff that went into service shortly after the war ended (stuff that would have been fun to try out, but historically was no longer needed). It probably is doable, but even less meaningful than my meaningless extension as the Japanese side simply can not hold out that long against the US production.

My extension is already going far into fantasy land, and I bet most games are over before the time runs out.

ORIGINAL: Shark7
Well, I'm not going that far. Just giving a little extra time for a chance at using some of the neater stuff that went into service shortly after the war ended (stuff that would have been fun to try out, but historically was no longer needed). It probably is doable, but even less meaningful than my meaningless extension as the Japanese side simply can not hold out that long against the US production.

My extension is already going far into fantasy land, and I bet most games are over before the time runs out.

Who said Scenario should begin in 1941?
Get some late-war Japanese toys from Nemo. With the amount of suicide small vehicles it will be really interesting.

ORIGINAL: mike scholl 1

ORIGINAL: el cid again

The record for construction of a Liberty ship was 30 days - although it was staged as a propaganda stunt -
.

Actually Cid..., the record was a bit over 4 days at one of the Kaiser Yards. Though you are right about the publicity stunt nature of the achievement.

Correct, I saw it on History channel [8D]

But also saw it in a number of books as well.