Matrix Games Forums

All,
I've scoured the forums & can't find an answer to this, so I apologize if its obvious and I've missed it. I've never played the TOAW series, but am very interested. However, I'm not sure about the phased turn order system. I keep seeing that 3.4 has a new turn order option, but I can't find anywhere that explains what that actually means. Can someone please explain it to me? I'm accustomed to Tiller systems, is the new system anything like that? Thanks
Batch

ORIGINAL: smb1968

All,
I've scoured the forums & can't find an answer to this, so I apologize if its obvious and I've missed it. I've never played the TOAW series, but am very interested. However, I'm not sure about the phased turn order system. I keep seeing that 3.4 has a new turn order option, but I can't find anywhere that explains what that actually means. Can someone please explain it to me? I'm accustomed to Tiller systems, is the new system anything like that? Thanks
Batch

new turn order option

There you go Kamerad...

New Turn Order
The old turn order option used to do all calculation for supply, recovery, and other items occurred between turns and was a bit unfair. The new turn order splits that processing inot three parts. There are now things like air combat and weather which still happen at the beginning of the turn. Things like supply and movement recovery now happen at the beginning of each side's movement instead of at the beggining of the turn.

kLiNk, Oberst

Ich danke Ihnen

I've been keeping some notes on the New Turn Order Rules from a players perspective, and because these questions come up a lot, I thought I would spluge out what I've observed.


Under the Old Rules, Player 1 can surround Player 2's units and in Player 2's turn those surrounded units will be in supply (the supply calculation having taken place at the beginning of Player 1's turn).

Under the New Rules, Player 1 can surround Player 2's units and in Player 2's turn those surrounded units will not be in supply (the supply calculation having taken place at the beginning of Player 2's turn).


Under the Old Rules, Player 2 can surround Player 1's units and in Player 1's turn those surrounded units will be out of supply (the supply calculation having taken place at the beginning of Player 1's turn).

Under the New Rules, Player 2 can surround Player 1's units and in Player 1's turn those surrounded units will be out of supply (the same as the Old Rules, the supply calculation having taken place at the beginning of Player 1's turn).


The only difference here is that under the Old Rules, Player 2 had the advantage of being able to reestablish supply to surrounded units, while Player 1 does not have that ability. This would create situations where turn after turn Player 1 would surround enemy units, only to have them break out in their turn, thus never having suffered being unsupplied. At the same time, Player 1 could start a turn with some of its units unsupplied, could break them out but have them re-surrounded during Player 2's turn, and therefore Player 1's units would be out of supply turn after turn.


Under the New Rules, reinforcements for Player 2 arrive at the beginning of Player 2's half of the turn, as opposed to the beginning of the turn under the Old Rules. Some scenarios were not designed for this, and can result in Player 1 having an extreme advantage.

Under the New Rules, movement recovery and reorganization for Player 2 occurs at the beginning of Player 2's half of the turn, as opposed to the beginning of the turn under the Old Rules. This can result in situations where Player 1 attacks Player 2's units and causes them to be routed and lose all movement points, but during Player 2's calculations the routed units recover and regain all movement points.


I'm not advocating either set of Rules, but I recommend only playing with the New Rules if the scenario you are playing specifically states to use them. Otherwise, you have to assume that the scenario has not been designed or tested with the New Rules and therefore may not function as intended.

Cheers

As far as supply, there is no good way to do it in IGO-UGO. Either you throw time out the window or you erm...throw time out the window. [:D]

Since both sides can begin supply at the beginning of a turn and a turn has a specific start in time and stop in time it would be difficult to take away supply from anyone without throwing time out the window and allowing aggregious time warps that reach back as far as the previous turn.

At the same time side two does have the advantage of being able to cut off supply from side one while side one has a more difficult time of it since side two has a chance to regain supply in the same time period it was lost.

I have played turn based war games since 1970 and it seems that lately more and more game designers are ignoring time and space. Might as well play science fiction since time warping seems to be more and more common.

I don't know if the new turn order makes the situation better or worse. [&:]

Maybe there should be one more step - a check on a units status the previous turn. If a unit was surrounded at the beginning of the last turn, and at the start of this turn it cannot trace a supply line, then it is unsupplied. I think that way the effect would be the same for both sides.

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

Under the New Rules, reinforcements for Player 2 arrive at the beginning of Player 2's half of the turn, as opposed to the beginning of the turn under the Old Rules. Some scenarios were not designed for this, and can result in Player 1 having an extreme advantage.

I think this is a real problem that needs to be addressed. Either we need to change it back to both sides reinforcements arrive at the start of the turn, or, if possible, make it a designer option - with the default being both at the start.

I don't see any issue with anything else, though. Supply, movement, and status recovery are definitely better and fairer under New Turn Order Rules.

It's ALIVE. [:D]

Long time no see.

Better and fairer in IGO-UGO are and always will be subjective. [;)]

Yes, the reinforcement part needs to be up to the scenario designer. Because there are so many old scenarios out there fairly any new 'stuff' needs to be selectable. Even to the point of an item by item format instead of all or nothing.