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Why Nazi Germany invaded Soviet Union?
Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 11:30 am
by JJKettunen
I think Adam Tooze in his excellent
The Wages of Destruction: The Making and Breaking of the Nazi Economy manages to sum it up in one single paragraph, page 420, scanned below:
RE: Why Nazi Germany invaded Soviet Union?
Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 11:34 am
by heliodorus04
Major copyright violation?
RE: Why Nazi Germany invaded Soviet Union?
Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 11:39 am
by JJKettunen
ORIGINAL: heliodorus04
Major copyright violation?
Lol, I'd say promotion.
RE: Why Nazi Germany invaded Soviet Union?
Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 11:47 am
by cmill_MatrixForum
Not sure how that'd be copyright violation. Scholars, students, and writers quote and cite other people's works all the time--as long as you cite the work used, there shouldn't be a problem. Photocopying the page directly is no different than typing it out by hand as far as I can figure. Unless of course you're distributing it.
RE: Why Nazi Germany invaded Soviet Union?
Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 11:50 am
by JJKettunen
Btw, this book is a proper myth-buster. For example, it shows how Speer's widely accepted claims that German economy wasn't fully mobilized during the first years of the war are just pure horse manure.
RE: Why Nazi Germany invaded Soviet Union?
Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 12:22 pm
by Mynok
Really? And what evidence does he provide for that, because the actual production numbers seem to fit Speer's claims (peak production in 1944).
RE: Why Nazi Germany invaded Soviet Union?
Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 12:29 pm
by herwin
ORIGINAL: heliodorus04
Major copyright violation?
Fair use.
RE: Why Nazi Germany invaded Soviet Union?
Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 12:37 pm
by JJKettunen
ORIGINAL: Mynok
Really? And what evidence does he provide for that, because the actual production numbers seem to fit Speer's claims (peak production in 1944).
I might violating copyrights if I told you. [X(]
RE: Why Nazi Germany invaded Soviet Union?
Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 1:16 pm
by kevini1000
I imagine that there many things that happen that have been hidden or falsifide for reason or another. Half of writing history is hiding the truth.
RE: Why Nazi Germany invaded Soviet Union?
Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 1:49 pm
by Mynok
ORIGINAL: Keke
ORIGINAL: Mynok
Really? And what evidence does he provide for that, because the actual production numbers seem to fit Speer's claims (peak production in 1944).
I might violating copyrights if I told you. [X(]
Giving away the ending of a good book is called 'spoiling' not 'copyright violation'. [:D]
RE: Why Nazi Germany invaded Soviet Union?
Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 2:53 pm
by Chris10
ORIGINAL: Mynok
Really? And what evidence does he provide for that, because the actual production numbers seem to fit Speer's claims (peak production in 1944).
You are right on this. Corruption and negligence was rampant in Germany at the time as the important positions in the responsible authoritys where occupied by egocentric selfrighteous ideological driven nazis who filled their own pockets rather than with real professionals and until mid 43 the german industry was only using relative little capacity for war equipment production. They started tighten things up a lot from summer 43 on and even under heaviest bombing raids in 44 production jumped up various times. Things could have been very different if Germanys Industry would have been geared up to full scale war production from 39 on.
RE: Why Nazi Germany invaded Soviet Union?
Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 3:06 pm
by JJKettunen
ORIGINAL: Chris10
ORIGINAL: Mynok
Really? And what evidence does he provide for that, because the actual production numbers seem to fit Speer's claims (peak production in 1944).
You are right on this. Corruption and negligence was rampant in Germany at the time as the important positions in the responsible authoritys where occupied by egocentric selfrighteous ideological driven nazis who filled their own pockets rather than with real professionals and until mid 43 the german industry was only using relative little capacity for war equipment production. They started tighten things up a lot from summer 43 on and even under heaviest bombing raids in 44 production jumped up various times. Things could have been very different if Germanys Industry would have been geared up to full scale war production from 39 on.
Lol, that is just repeating the myth.
RE: Why Nazi Germany invaded Soviet Union?
Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 3:24 pm
by Chris10
ORIGINAL: Keke
Lol, that is just repeating the myth.
Interesting how always all the foreigners know more about our own country than we do..especially after studying these sort of things for 30 years and having natural access to paperwork/books and documents never translated nor published in other languages than german...[:)]
RE: Why Nazi Germany invaded Soviet Union?
Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 3:25 pm
by JJKettunen
Btw, Speer really had motivation to cover the truth as a ruthless exploiter of slave labour. During the war he got the credit for major investments made between 1940-41, which bore fruit from 1942 on. His "success" was also propaganda for the worried civilians ("we can manage even if we don't have enough resources"). For some reason many western historians have accepted Speer's views without properly checking the facts.
RE: Why Nazi Germany invaded Soviet Union?
Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 3:32 pm
by JJKettunen
ORIGINAL: Chris10
ORIGINAL: Keke
Lol, that is just repeating the myth.
Interesting how always all the foreigners know more about our own country than we do..especially after studying these sort of things for 30 years and having natural access to paperwork/books and documents never published nor translated into other languages than german...[:)]
Why do you repeat old myths on these boards then? What makes you think "foreigners" don't know German language? Why do you think "foreigners" don't have access to German archives? You are not the sharpest tool in the toolbox, are you?
RE: Why Nazi Germany invaded Soviet Union?
Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 3:34 pm
by Chris10
ORIGINAL: Keke
You are not the sharpest tool in the toolbox, are you?
I see you are straight going into personal...sorry..cant bother with you then
RE: Why Nazi Germany invaded Soviet Union?
Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 3:40 pm
by herwin
Green button.
RE: Why Nazi Germany invaded Soviet Union?
Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 3:51 pm
by JJKettunen
Well one could argue intelligently about the merits of Speer without just repeating the old myths and questioning the knowledge of "foreigners"...
RE: Why Nazi Germany invaded Soviet Union?
Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 6:00 pm
by heliodorus04
ORIGINAL: Keke
Well one could argue intelligently about the merits of Speer without just repeating the old myths and questioning the knowledge of "foreigners"...
Did I miss the memo where you alone get to decide what is fact and what is myth?
I'm not saying you're wrong about Speer or anything else. I'm just saying that debate has to start with some accommodation of other points of view.
RE: Why Nazi Germany invaded Soviet Union?
Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 7:00 pm
by JJKettunen
It was the same memo that briefed about copyrights. [;)]