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Baku - astrkhan railroad
Posted: Sun Jul 03, 2011 8:08 pm
by davetheroad
As you are probably aware the soviet rail line along the western edge of the Caspain sea was constructed in 1941/42 as a response to the german threat to the north south lines east of Rostov. The soviets needed that line to transport fuel from the southern oilfields.
The manual states that once fuel is produced it is stored in towns and cities on the rail grid.
Question. If the north south rail grid is severed the fuel will only accumulate in cities south of the severed rail??
Luckily for the russians the germans did not even know the Baku-Astrakhan rail line existed and surprisingly never really tried to destroy it when they did blunder into it.
The likely soviet response to the german severing the line would be:
1. try anything to take it back
2. try to incease the limited tanker capacity in the caspian to transfer fuel east across the sea
3. build another rail line south and east and then north along the edge of the caspian to reconnect with their railnet in central asia. This would take a few months.
does the game simulate this?
Seems like a damm good reason for a southern strategy in 1942.
Apparently the germans capturing Baku would not significantly help their economy because there was no way of transporting the fuel back to germany.
RE: Baku - astrkhan railroad
Posted: Sun Jul 03, 2011 8:50 pm
by herwin
ORIGINAL: davetheroad
As you are probably aware the soviet rail line along the western edge of the Caspain sea was constructed in 1941/42 as a response to the german threat to the north south lines east of Rostov. The soviets needed that line to transport fuel from the southern oilfields.
The manual states that once fuel is produced it is stored in towns and cities on the rail grid.
Question. If the north south rail grid is severed the fuel will only accumulate in cities south of the severed rail??
Luckily for the russians the germans did not even know the Baku-Astrakhan rail line existed and surprisingly never really tried to destroy it when they did blunder into it.
The likely soviet response to the german severing the line would be:
1. try anything to take it back
2. try to incease the limited tanker capacity in the caspian to transfer fuel east across the sea
3. build another rail line south and east and then north along the edge of the caspian to reconnect with their railnet in central asia. This would take a few months.
does the game simulate this?
Seems like a damm good reason for a southern strategy in 1942.
Apparently the germans capturing Baku would not significantly help their economy because there was no way of transporting the fuel back to germany.
There were a number of other rail lines also built in that area at that time. The building effort came as a
very unpleasant surprise for OKH when it was discovered in August 1942--see Halder's diary. Operation Uranus was supplied by those lines.
RE: Baku - astrkhan railroad
Posted: Sun Jul 03, 2011 9:06 pm
by davetheroad
apparently the soviets built ten thousand kilometres of new lines in ww2 including a new line from stalingrad to saratov
and the line west from Archangel to reconnect the line to murmansk.
It would be good if such a all encompassing game could model this in some way. there are so many lines on the game map
which were not there in 1941 including the german new build from nikolaev into the crimea. Before that was completed in 43?
rail traffic had to go via Zaporozhye.
RE: Baku - astrkhan railroad
Posted: Sun Jul 03, 2011 11:27 pm
by LiquidSky
They didnt really 'build' that rail line. They ripped up some Siberian trunk line near Manchuria, and transfered the rail to the west.
RE: Baku - astrkhan railroad
Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2011 4:14 am
by goranw
Hi!
As noted on my planning map-Operationskarte
the rail Baku-Astrachan( Volga-ferry) was regulary usuable from sept-42,
( Although on a German planning map firstly on 21 july-42 but with uncertain state)
Saratow up to Stalingrad (that is Don river area-Ilowlinskaja) sept-42 and Cherson (Dnepr-ferry)-(Armjansk)Krim-may-42 (German built but
on Stalin's 5 year pre-war plan).
(German railway sources)
GoranW
RE: Baku - astrkhan railroad
Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2011 5:05 am
by Remmes
The German 116 Panzer division sent out a couple of patrols from Elista to the East to recon the area around the Caspian and Astrakhan. They actually reached the Baku - Astrakhan rail line, blew up a train and spoke to the station master in Astrakhan by a telephone line. It is generally assumed these patrols were the farthest advance east of the Germans. (in Kalymykia the main religion is Buddhism; so it must have a definite Asiatic feel)
If you google for long range patrol to Astrakhan, of something similar, information about these patrols can be found online quite easily
RE: Baku - astrkhan railroad
Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2011 11:30 am
by herwin
ORIGINAL: goranw
Hi!
As noted on my planning map-Operationskarte
the rail Baku-Astrachan( Volga-ferry) was regulary usuable from sept-42,
( Although on a German planning map firstly on 21 july-42 but with uncertain state)
Saratow up to Stalingrad (that is Don river area-Ilowlinskaja) sept-42 and Cherson (Dnepr-ferry)-(Armjansk)Krim-may-42 (German built but
on Stalin's 5 year pre-war plan).
(German railway sources)
GoranW
There were some
other lines built in the area, too, but my presentation on the subject is 8 time zones away. Nasty surprise for the Germans.
RE: Baku - astrkhan railroad
Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2011 11:31 am
by herwin
ORIGINAL: Ramses
The German 116 Panzer division sent out a couple of patrols from Elista to the East to recon the area around the Caspian and Astrakhan. They actually reached the Baku - Astrakhan rail line, blew up a train and spoke to the station master in Astrakhan by a telephone line. It is generally assumed these patrols were the farthest advance east of the Germans. (in Kalymykia the main religion is Buddhism; so it must have a definite Asiatic feel)
If you google for long range patrol to Astrakhan, of something similar, information about these patrols can be found online quite easily
Extremely tenuous supply line.
RE: Baku - astrkhan railroad
Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2011 2:50 pm
by goranw
ORIGINAL:
There were some
other lines built in the area, too, but my presentation on the subject is 8 time zones away. Nasty surprise for the Germans.
[/quote]
Hi!
What railway lines a You referring to?
Apart from what is mentioned I am not aware of any.
Soviet " Feldbahnen?
On the German side there are the 3 big ( unfinished) German "Heeresfeldbahnen" west of Stalingrad?
Regards,
Goran
RE: Baku - astrkhan railroad
Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2011 9:37 pm
by herwin
ORIGINAL: goranw
ORIGINAL:
There were some
other lines built in the area, too, but my presentation on the subject is 8 time zones away. Nasty surprise for the Germans.
Hi!
What railway lines a You referring to?
Apart from what is mentioned I am not aware of any.
Soviet " Feldbahnen?
On the German side there are the 3 big ( unfinished) German "Heeresfeldbahnen" west of Stalingrad?
Regards,
Goran
[/quote]
Like I said, my sources are eight time zones away. As I recall there were new lines to the Volga east bank between Saratov and Stalingrad, to the Volga east bank immediately south-east of Stalingrad, a line some distance east of the Volga connecting Astrakhan to the refineries near Saratov, and the line already mentioned between Astrakhan and Baku.
RE: Baku - astrkhan railroad
Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 8:36 am
by goranw
ORIGINAL: herwin
ORIGINAL: goranw
ORIGINAL:
There were some
other lines built in the area, too, but my presentation on the subject is 8 time zones away. Nasty surprise for the Germans.
Hi!
What railway lines a You referring to?
Apart from what is mentioned I am not aware of any.
Soviet " Feldbahnen?
On the German side there are the 3 big ( unfinished) German "Heeresfeldbahnen" west of Stalingrad?
Regards,
Goran
Like I said, my sources are eight time zones away. As I recall there were new lines to the Volga east bank between Saratov and Stalingrad, to the Volga east bank immediately south-east of Stalingrad, a line some distance east of the Volga connecting Astrakhan to the refineries near Saratov, and the line already mentioned between Astrakhan and Baku.
[/quote]
Hi!
These are my sources. From Soviet ww2 railway-atlas.
Regards,
Goran
RE: Baku - astrkhan railroad
Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 11:38 am
by herwin
Yes, a number of those lines were either built or improved in 1941-42.