Matrix Games Forums

ORIGINAL: rkr1958

I would like to hear from the the WW-II "historians" among us on the following question(s).

Is there any historical evidence that would support the premise that Stalin would have allowed corps size combat troops from the UK or USA to operate within the Soviet Union?

If yes or no, what is that evidence?

And if yes, under what conditions do you believe Stalin would have allowed this?

ORIGINAL: rkr1958

ORIGINAL: rkr1958

I would like to hear from the the WW-II "historians" among us on the following question(s).

Is there any historical evidence that would support the premise that Stalin would have allowed corps size combat troops from the UK or USA to operate within the Soviet Union?

If yes or no, what is that evidence?

And if yes, under what conditions do you believe Stalin would have allowed this?

I'll also go first ... so fire away if you disagree. [:)]

I would like to hear from the the WW-II "historians" among us on the following question(s).

Is there any historical evidence that would support the premise that Stalin would have allowed corps size combat troops from the UK or USA to operate within the Soviet Union?

If yes or no, what is that evidence?

And if yes, under what conditions do you believe Stalin would have allowed this?

ORIGINAL: elxaime

I would not be so sure. There is some anecdotal evidence that the Soviet Union suggested it would be open to Allied ground assistance during the most dire period of Summer/Fall 1941-2. However the fact of the matter is that, aside from perhaps that brief period, it was not a real possibility. The British Empire was in no position to send troops anywhere in Russia and the USA likewise had its hands full after December 1941.

We need to remember that politics makes strange bedfellows. Prior to it actually happening, few would have predicted the Soviet-Nazi Pact of 1939. Likewise, the idea of massive US supplies being sent to the Soviets would have appeared ludicrous until the circumstances arose and it actually happened.

With our historical hindsight, we tend to discount various actions as being beyond the realm of possibility . But the better approach is to try and put yourselves in the shoes of the decision makers at the time. If the circumstances provided for the possibility, and the political cost-benefit analysis played out, it could have happened.

I see three elements to consider. First, remember that Hitler's Regime was waging what was essentially a genocidal war against the Soviet Union. The Soviet Union was to be vaporized and replaced by the Third Reich's vision of a new "Ostland" with local populations replaced by German settlers and surviving Slavs either enslaved or relegated to east of the Urals. There was precious little room to negotiate - it was a war to the death. If the choice was between going under the Nazi boot and accepting whatever help was available in whatever form, can we truly say Stalin would have balked? Second, there is historical precedent for the Soviets doing whatever it took to "save the Revolution", namely Lenin's Treaty of Brest-Litovsk that took Russia out of WW1. That treaty, temporarily as it turned out due to Germany's subsequent defeat, gave the Kaiser a huge chunk of land, indemnities, etc. Third, we need to avoid having our lenses, as it were, colored by later Cold War views. At the time in 1941-1945, feelings toward the Soviet Union as an ally, and especially feelings toward the Soviet people, were much, much warmer in the US and Britain. The Red Army was viewed heroically for its victory at Stalingrad. There was real Soviet relief and gratitude at the establishment of the Second Front in Normandy in June 1944.

World diplomatic history is full of some amazing volte-faces and strange alliances of convenience. Our own US history started with one such, the assistance, including troops and ships, of the absolute French Monarchy fighting alongside the new revolution against the British during 1778-1783. It would be a mistake to view Soviet-Western relations during WW2 as so predetermined by ideological views as to preclude such possibilities.

ORIGINAL: rkr1958

I would like to hear from the the WW-II "historians" among us on the following question(s).

Is there any historical evidence that would support the premise that Stalin would have allowed corps size combat troops from the UK or USA to operate within the Soviet Union?

If yes or no, what is that evidence?

And if yes, under what conditions do you believe Stalin would have allowed this?

ORIGINAL: composer99

I understand a Free French air squadron, the Group de Chasse GC3, also served in the Soviet Union during the war.

ORIGINAL: composer99

My online source is Wikipedia.

Wikipedia refers to three books and one article as references:
- Normandie Niemen, Yves Courrière, Omnibus, 2004 ISBN 2-258-06171-7
- Un du Normandie-Niemen, Roger Sauvage, Poche, 1971 ISBN B0000DOP3V
- French Eagles Soviet Heroes, John D. Clark, Sutton, 2005 ISBN 0-7509-4074-3
- Bernole & Barnett, "French Aces on the Eastern Front", WWII Quarterly, Fall 2011, pp. 16-25, 94

Wikipedia also links to the following more-or-less official online sources:
- What appears to be http://normandieniemen.free.fr/ for the official musuem/exhibit dedicated to the group.

The Polar Bear Expedition (also known as the Northern Russian Expedition, the American North Russia Expeditionary Force - ANREF or the American Expeditionary Force North Russia - AEFNR) was a contingent of about 5,000 U.S. troops[1] that landed in Arkhangelsk, Russia as part of the Allied intervention in the Russian Civil War and fought the Red Army in the surrounding region during the period of September 1918 through July 1919.

ORIGINAL: rkr1958

Below is an interesting reference (given to me by someone else) on why Stalin might be sour on US combat intervention in Russia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polar_Bear_Expedition

The Polar Bear Expedition (also known as the Northern Russian Expedition, the American North Russia Expeditionary Force - ANREF or the American Expeditionary Force North Russia - AEFNR) was a contingent of about 5,000 U.S. troops[1] that landed in Arkhangelsk, Russia as part of the Allied intervention in the Russian Civil War and fought the Red Army in the surrounding region during the period of September 1918 through July 1919.

The American military intervention at Archangel, Russia, at the end of World War I, nicknamed the "Polar Bear Expedition," is a strange episode in American history. Ostensibly sent to Russia to prevent a German advance and to help reopen the Eastern Front, American soldiers found themselves fighting Bolshevik revolutionaries for months after the Armistice ended fighting in France.

ORIGINAL: rkr1958

Below is an interesting reference (given to me by someone else) on why Stalin might be sour on US combat intervention in Russia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polar_Bear_Expedition

The Polar Bear Expedition (also known as the Northern Russian Expedition, the American North Russia Expeditionary Force - ANREF or the American Expeditionary Force North Russia - AEFNR) was a contingent of about 5,000 U.S. troops[1] that landed in Arkhangelsk, Russia as part of the Allied intervention in the Russian Civil War and fought the Red Army in the surrounding region during the period of September 1918 through July 1919.

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
But there were US troops up by Archangel that got driven out by the Soviets in the 1920's. And there were Commonwealth units down in the Crimea if my memory serves me correctly. The Red Army fought a desperate battle against the White Army and a host of other countries (US, Commonwealth, Japan) while simultaneously keeping down nationalist uprisings in Belo-Rus, Ukraine, and the Baltic States. There were even Hungarians conducting a fighting retreat eastwards across Siberia (they eventually exited through the Pacific and circumnavigated the globe to get back to Hungary). That all took place in the 1920's when Stalin and the members of his Politobureau (sp?) were out in the front lines fighting. Those experiences were undoubtedly be hard for Stallin and his comrades to forget easily.