Matrix Games Forums

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

13) New Rule – Hiwis (Hilfswilliger - "auxiliary volunteers") – Rules have been added to account for the soldiers and civilians that served as support personnel for German units during WWII (known as Hiwis).
a) Hiwis are generated from captured men. 8% of captured manpower will go into a Hiwi pool. Also, captured manpower centers also produce 10 men for each captured point (theater production limits and damage apply).
b) Hiwis can be added to German unit’s Support and Labor Squads starting from 1942.
c) Hiwis can't be added to High Command HQs.
d) Hiwis can't be more than 70% of current labor ground element TOE, 30% of current support element TOE, or 10% of current support element TOE of an SS Elite unit TOE.
e) If the parent element is targeted and is destroyed there is a maximum 60% chance that a Hiwis squad will be destroyed instead (the less percentage of the element made up with Hiwis, the smaller the chance that a Hiwi squad will be destroyed).
f) Hiwis elements provide the same amount of support and engineer values as a normal support squad.
g) If using an old save, when first loaded the game will generate some amount of Hiwis based on existing captured men and manpower centers.
h) Interface changes - The number of Hiwis in a unit is show on the unit’s detailed information display. The number of Hiwi elements is shown in parenthesis next to the ground element type. So the entry Support (Hiwi 2) indicates that 2 of the support squads in the unit are Hiwi squads). The production screen has an entry for Hiwis, showing how many men are in the Hiwi pool.

I really like the proposed HIWI rules, as Hiwis were an important addition to the German Army. It also confers some benefit to the Wehrmacth from the population of Russia.

I am curious as to how this will shake-out in game terms. I am not 100% familiar with all the ins and outs of the replacement system.

When replacements for Labor/Support are needed, will HIWIS be drawn first? If all your units are at 100% for support and labor squad needs, will it draw HIWIS, and put Germans back in the pool?

Wehrmacht Infantry will go through a process of converting Support Squads to Rifle Squads. How will HIWIS impact this? (I'm pretty sure they won't convert to Rifle units, but I wonder if you are at the 30% cap already, if they will prevent German Squads from converting, because if they do, it will push HIWIS over the Cap)

Is it pretty much a given that HIWIS will get used, or will they end up accumulating in the pool?

If they get 100% used, and the net effect it to put Germans on the line on a 1 for 1 basis, then it's basically like extending Wehrmacht Manpower production. Which is a good thing, but just making sure that's what is happening.

Also, as Germans I never paid attention to the amount of Captured Manpower Centers. What is a reasonable range in 1942 for the Germans to have in Russia?

Occupied Soviet Manpower degrades over time; the Manpower will disappear slowly. Will this still happen? (I think it should, just checking)

When replacements for Labor/Support are needed, will HIWIS be drawn first?

Yes

If all your units are at 100% for support and labor squad needs, will it draw HIWIS, and put Germans back in the pool?

No

Wehrmacht Infantry will go through a process of converting Support Squads to Rifle Squads. How will HIWIS impact this?

Hiwis won't be used for that.

Is it pretty much a given that HIWIS will get used, or will they end up accumulating in the pool?

So far I don't see them staying in the pool.

What is a reasonable range in 1942 for the Germans to have in Russia?

The more is better.

Occupied Soviet Manpower degrades over time; the Manpower will disappear slowly. Will this still happen?

Yes

Hiwis won't be used for that.

I think the question was:

100 Support Squads - 70 German squads, 30 HIWI squads

If 4 German Support Squads converts to Rifle Squads, then the TOE of Support Squads is now 31% HIWI (or 30 Support Squads out of 96)

Does the cap mean that:
A. The conversion will not happen, since the game knows it will cause the unit to exceed the 30% cap
B. The conversion will happen, but any additional Support Squads will only ever be German squads, to prevent from exceeding the cap more than it already did
C. Some other outcome

Will the Hiwi pool be used to replenish units which were formed and based around nationalities included in the 'Hiwi' figures rather than those units drawing from German manpools? eg 20th Waffen Grenadier Division (can't spot 15th and 19th, which would be the other two which spring straight to mind, in the reinforcements list).

Will the Hiwi pool be used to replenish units which were formed and based around nationalities included in the 'Hiwi' figures rather than those units drawing from German manpools? eg 20th Waffen Grenadier Division (can't spot 15th and 19th, which would be the other two which spring straight to mind, in the reinforcements list).

No.

B. The conversion will happen, but any additional Support Squads will only ever be German squads, to prevent from exceeding the cap more than it already did

B

Hi

Another member posted the following - it would be excellent for the HIWI repl to be used in these units apparantly missing in the formal game.

I copied it so here it is;

Hello,
I am working on a 41-45 GC mod with german additionnal units
that were neglected in the game OOB.
These units are listed beneauth, and were mainly involved in antipartisan duties.
I already add one unit type to TOE (infantry regiment (-)
and suceeded in adding one unit on the map, for a start.
I colud need some help though.
Yours
Stephane

UNIT NAME UNIT TYPE TOE #
ARRIVAL DEPARTURE
Freikorps Danmark Infantry regiment (-) 358
MAY 42 APRIL 43
Légion Volontaires Français Infantry regiment (-) 358
1 NOV 41 1 SEP 44
Corps Franc Wallonie Infantry regiment (-) 358
1 NOV 41 28 FEB 42
Freiwilligen Legion Niederland Infantry regiment (-) 358
1 JAN 42 1 APR 43
Legion Espanola Voluntarios Infantry regiment (-) 358
1 NOV 43 1 MAR 44
369th Kroatische Infantry regiment
22 AUG 41 1 FEB 43
3rd Estonian Brigade Infantry regiment (-) 358
1 MAY 43 1 JAN 44
Latvian Police Rgt Riga Infantry regiment (-) 358
1 AUG 43
Latvian Kurland Rgt Infantry regiment (-) 358
1 FEB 44
3rd Latvian Rgt Infantry regiment (-) 358
1 SEP 44
1st Lithuanian Police Rgt Infantry regiment (-) 358
3 JUL 44
Sondervergand Bergman Infantry regiment (-) 358
1 JAN 42
1st Cossack Division cossak division
1 APR 43 1 SEP 43
Kalmuckische Kavallerie Korps cavalry brigade
1 JUL 43
RONA Infantry Division
1 SEP 43 1 MAR 44
SS Sturmbrigade RONA Infantry brigade
1 MAR 44
RNNA Russian Ntl People Army Infantry brigade
1 AUG 44
(VLASOV ARMY)
ROA 600th Div. Volksgrenadier Division
28 JAN 45
ROA 650th Div. Volksgrenadier Division
28 JAN 45
Sonderdivision Russland Infantry Division
1 JAN 43

ORIGINAL: cavalry

Hi

Another member posted the following - it would be excellent for the HIWI repl to be used in these units apparantly missing in the formal game.

I copied it so here it is;

Hello,
I am working on a 41-45 GC mod with german additionnal units
that were neglected in the game OOB.
These units are listed beneauth, and were mainly involved in antipartisan duties.
I already add one unit type to TOE (infantry regiment (-)
and suceeded in adding one unit on the map, for a start.
I colud need some help though.
Yours
Stephane

UNIT NAME UNIT TYPE TOE #
ARRIVAL DEPARTURE
369th Kroatische Infantry regiment
22 AUG 41 1 FEB 43

Tell him this one is in the game already

I would qualify this a little as some of these units would be formed from appropriate nationals like...

http://axis101.bizland.com/LatvianFeldpost.htm

Cav

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

ORIGINAL: cavalry

Hi

Another member posted the following - it would be excellent for the HIWI repl to be used in these units apparantly missing in the formal game.

I copied it so here it is;

Hello,
I am working on a 41-45 GC mod with german additionnal units
that were neglected in the game OOB.
These units are listed beneauth, and were mainly involved in antipartisan duties.
I already add one unit type to TOE (infantry regiment (-)
and suceeded in adding one unit on the map, for a start.
I colud need some help though.
Yours
Stephane

UNIT NAME UNIT TYPE TOE #
ARRIVAL DEPARTURE
369th Kroatische Infantry regiment
22 AUG 41 1 FEB 43

Tell him this one is in the game already

Thought one or two looked familiar but there are a lot here...

like...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3._Estnisc ... en_Brigade

Cav

It's an interesting mod, though alot of those units that were "Regiments" were decidedly less than that.

Some of these might be appropriate as Support Units though, as they were often attached to larger formations

I sthis unit in the game then...

20th Estonian Waffen Grenadier Division

This might alos be of interest.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ostlegionen

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

It's an interesting mod, though alot of those units that were "Regiments" were decidedly less than that.

Some of these might be appropriate as Support Units though, as they were often attached to larger formations

You may be wrong here. OCS has a lot of Ost troepen and while certainly a mixed bag, some are actually rated as quality 4 or even 5. (roughly 80 and or 90 in WitE terms). And also pretty strong in combat power.

The list above is actually quite small compared to what OCS has...

ORIGINAL: glvaca

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

It's an interesting mod, though alot of those units that were "Regiments" were decidedly less than that.

Some of these might be appropriate as Support Units though, as they were often attached to larger formations

You may be wrong here. OCS has a lot of Ost troepen and while certainly a mixed bag, some are actually rated as quality 4 or even 5. (roughly 80 and or 90 in WitE terms). And also pretty strong in combat power.

The list above is actually quite small compared to what OCS has...

OCS? I am not familiar with that.

There seem to be two types of troops discussed here.

The "Hiwis" were mostly Russian POWs conscripted as labour by German forces. Some were incorporated into "Ost Battalions" combat units. Although some units apparently fought well, it appears the majority disappeared or surrendered as soon as they saw combat.

There were also "foreign volunteers" which were incorporated into German units, mostly waffen SS formations. This appears to be what Cobexlaw888's mod is addressing. However the manpower for these units did not come from the "Hiwis".

If Hiwis do make it into the game as Ost Battalions, they should really be second rate units used mostly as axis garrison or for anti-partisan duties.

ORIGINAL: Captain
There seem to be two types of troops discussed here.

The "Hiwis" were mostly Russian POWs conscripted as labour by German forces. Some were incorporated into "Ost Battalions" combat units. Although some units apparently fought well, it appears the majority disappeared or surrendered as soon as they saw combat.

There were also "foreign volunteers" which were incorporated into German units, mostly waffen SS formations. This appears to be what Cobexlaw888's mod is addressing. However the manpower for these units did not come from the "Hiwis".

If Hiwis do make it into the game as Ost Battalions, they should really be second rate units used mostly as axis garrison or for anti-partisan duties.

Turkish, Caucasian, Russian, Ukrainian etc. 'hiwis' in their own units (ie not attached to German units) made up roughly 1/3 of the total hiwi figure on the Eastern Front on 1st November 1944 as accounted for by OKW. Other units which came under SS control are counted under SS figures even though they were not recruiting primarily from German manpower and would have been classed as 'hiwis' under Heer figures - such as the estimated 85k Russians and Ukrainians who found themselves in SS units over the duration of the war in the East. It's a quagmire but sure the devs and researchers are aware of the issues and are looking for some form of balance rather than attempting a foolhardy attempt at being completely 100% historically accurate here as that would be a tad impossible.

Here's and interesting image I found. I think late war I read out of 150(147?) inf company man roster about 20 positions were slated for Hiwis. But don't quote me on that yet.

If you check the rest of the thread you took that picture from, you'll see the full figures given in a table further down.

ORIGINAL: Captain

ORIGINAL: glvaca

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

It's an interesting mod, though alot of those units that were "Regiments" were decidedly less than that.

Some of these might be appropriate as Support Units though, as they were often attached to larger formations

You may be wrong here. OCS has a lot of Ost troepen and while certainly a mixed bag, some are actually rated as quality 4 or even 5. (roughly 80 and or 90 in WitE terms). And also pretty strong in combat power.

The list above is actually quite small compared to what OCS has...

OCS? I am not familiar with that.

There seem to be two types of troops discussed here.

The "Hiwis" were mostly Russian POWs conscripted as labour by German forces. Some were incorporated into "Ost Battalions" combat units. Although some units apparently fought well, it appears the majority disappeared or surrendered as soon as they saw combat.

There were also "foreign volunteers" which were incorporated into German units, mostly waffen SS formations. This appears to be what Cobexlaw888's mod is addressing. However the manpower for these units did not come from the "Hiwis".

If Hiwis do make it into the game as Ost Battalions, they should really be second rate units used mostly as axis garrison or for anti-partisan duties.

OCS: Operational Combat Series: Case Blue. Google it, it's really good.

Very detailed OoB too. I played the full campaign a while back as the Axis and there are a LOT of combat Ost Battalions (not to be confused with the Ost Battalions on the Western front made up from captured Russians). There were minorities in the USSR that fought for the Germans.

There quality was mixed, but there were certainly many usefull and sometimes even very good units among them. They would be very usefull in the game to attach to divisions (like other SU's) or to to digging or anti-partisan but also combat if necessary. Many cav units too.

When I've got time, I'll dig up the OCS OoB and make a list, but it's long...