Matrix Games Forums

Maybe this is where the question should be?

If you look at equipment, tanks, planes, guns and so on... I see the numbers, but how does this translate to combat value?
How do I know what plane to update to (everyone says do it manually)?
Is there a combat value per plane or tank or gun listed anywhere that I'm just not seeing???

Thanks for your help...

Pat

ORIGINAL: Patoooo

Maybe this is where the question should be?

If you look at equipment, tanks, planes, guns and so on... I see the numbers, but how does this translate to combat value?
How do I know what plane to update to (everyone says do it manually)?
Is there a combat value per plane or tank or gun listed anywhere that I'm just not seeing???

Thanks for your help...

Pat

In the original design players did not have the ability to change anything including aircraft so with no decision to be made the individual combat value of any element was irrelevant. As a result to the best of my knowledge (if you find it let me know) there is no combat value equivalency for individual elements displayed in the game. If you want to use manual aircraft update (I don't) I suggest you do some research on the various aircraft to help in your decision process. One easy rule of thumb that usually works is that newer aircraft of the same type (e.g. fighters) are better than older aircraft.

Thanks...

I guess I was also just looking at tanks and really wanted a comparison also, just for interest sakes.
Well, yeah, fighters also... maybe more so... lol
The numbers must be there somewhere if the game engine uses something.

Appendix A has the different combat values of the different types of equipment. This is just for calculating CV value (which determines winners and losers in ground combat). The performance of any particular ground element or aircraft in combat is actually due to many different factors about the equipment and the unit using the equimpment.

Joel,

I think the poster was looking for element specific CVs such as what is the CV of a Bf-109G versus a FW 190A or in CV terms how does a Panther compare to a Tiger.

Jim

Well in terms of CV as it is defined in the manual, there is no difference between a Tiger and a Panther. But CV is only used for determing who wins a ground battle. Combat fighting ability is a totally different thing.

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

Well in terms of CV as it is defined in the manual, there is no difference between a Tiger and a Panther. But CV is only used for determing who wins a ground battle. Combat fighting ability is a totally different thing.

I think most people, myself included, would find themselves scratching their heads at your comment. Isn't who wins the ground battle what it is all about? How can combat fighting ability and combat value not be related?

Jim

Combat Value as defined in the game is something that is used to determine the ability of a ground force to hold or capture ground. In WitE an artillery piece has 0 combat value, while infantry and AFVs have the most CV. CV is not used to determine damage from weapons firing at each other. An artillery piece may cause many casualties to the enemy during a combat, but when it comes to adding up the CV value of the forces in combat to determine who holds the battlefield after combat, the artillery piece has 0 value.

So here is what I hear: please help me with my understanding

When an attack commences, first the individual elements involved shoot at each other (using statistics that are not CV-based).
This determines damaged, destroyed, and disrupted elements.

Elements that are not damaged, destroyed, or disrupted are then summed for both the attacker, and defender, after which the CVs of the combatants are determined, compared, and an outcome for the physical hex is determined.

When an attack commences, first the individual elements involved shoot at each other (using statistics that are not CV-based).
This determines damaged, destroyed, and disrupted elements.

Elements that are not damaged, destroyed, or disrupted are then summed for both the attacker, and defender, after which the CVs of the combatants are determined, compared, and an outcome for the physical hex is determined.

Correct.

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

Combat Value as defined in the game is something that is used to determine the ability of a ground force to hold or capture ground. In WitE an artillery piece has 0 combat value, while infantry and AFVs have the most CV. CV is not used to determine damage from weapons firing at each other. An artillery piece may cause many casualties to the enemy during a combat, but when it comes to adding up the CV value of the forces in combat to determine who holds the battlefield after combat, the artillery piece has 0 value.

True but theoretically superior ground elements (adjusted for experience, morale, etc.) will destroy more inferior ground elements than they loose themselves thereby effecting the final CV of the forces. To use an unrealistic example for illustration purposes, if a 100 Tigers were to attack a 100 T-34s all other things being equal the initial CV of both forces should be equal but in the battle far more of the T-34s would be destroyed than Tigers resulting in a higher final CV for the Tigers. Therefore the Tigers actually have a higher pre-combat CV than the game shows and the two forces only appear equal because of how CV is scored.

I think the whole CV concept is doing the game a disservice as it doesn't reflect the real fighting value of the units which is what people are concerned about.

It is also a bit goofy in that artillery cannot hold ground, while numerous cases of artillery holding a position together (and being the last on the ground) exist - notably Italian artillery in the desert (which is a bit OT).

Hi all,

ORIGINAL: heliodorus04

When an attack commences, first the individual elements involved shoot at each other (using statistics that are not CV-based).
This determines damaged, destroyed, and disrupted elements.

The armor / penetration tables are used as well as a chance of attack from side (i.e. armored vehicles have value for frontal and side armor)!


Leo "Apollo11"

ORIGINAL: Lieste

It is also a bit goofy in that artillery cannot hold ground, while numerous cases of artillery holding a position together (and being the last on the ground) exist - notably Italian artillery in the desert (which is a bit OT).

I would say that says more about the Italians than about the ability of artillery to hold ground...