Matrix Games Forums

Greetings,

This is a continuation in a series of what are perceived to be the last, few remaining
deficiencies in with WITP:AE series of war simulators (yes, I am convinved this is a simluation and realism must be emphasized above playability- and yes, there are only a
few remaning deficiencies, this is truly a masterpiece that has been developed by the WITP community)

It is believed that the airframe research is completely unrealistic. The use or "research factories" and "reseach points" and the consumption of "supply" for the building of such is also unrealistic.

The best system that can be devised is one, where, assuming the player is in charge of the Japanese Koku Hombu is that projects are assigned to the respective design teams.

The teams that are available will include:

1)Mistusbishi Fighter Team (under Jiro Horikoshi)
2)Mitsubishi Bmr Team (under Kiro Honjo)
3)Nakajima Fighter Team (under Yasushi Koyama)
4)Nakajima Bmr Team (Kenichi Matsumara)
5) Kawasaki Team (under Takeo Doi)
6) Kawanishi Team
7) Aichi Team
8) Yokosuka Team
9) Mansyu Team
10) Hitachi Team (responsible for foreign licences, such as the HE-100)
11) Watanabe Team
12) Tachikawa Team

Each team can be assigned projects, a rough estimate can be as follows

New Airframe - 1 year
New Model - 3 months
New Variant - 1 month

*The A6M5 is a new model of the A6M airframe, the A6M5c is a variant of the A6M5 model

Teams are limited to the aiframes and models available historically, and only those developed by that company. A simple interface can be used such as the one in civilization II research "J2M aiframe is completed by Mitsubishi Fighter team, what should be researched next?" --> select from list J2M3 model, A6M5 model, A6M3 variant, A7M airframe"

ORIGINAL: Commander Stormwolf

Greetings,

This is a continuation in a series of what are perceived to be the last, few remaining
deficiencies in with WITP:AE series of war simulators (yes, I am convinved this is a simluation and realism must be emphasized above playability- and yes, there are only a
few remaning deficiencies, this is truly a masterpiece that has been developed by the WITP community)

It is believed that the airframe research is completely unrealistic. The use or "research factories" and "reseach points" and the consumption of "supply" for the building of such is also unrealistic.

The best system that can be devised is one, where, assuming the player is in charge of the Japanese Koku Hombu is that projects are assigned to the respective design teams.

The teams that are available will include:

1)Mistusbishi Fighter Team (under Jiro Horikoshi)
2)Mitsubishi Bmr Team (under Kiro Honjo)
3)Nakajima Fighter Team (under Yasushi Koyama)
4)Nakajima Bmr Team (Kenichi Matsumara)
5) Kawasaki Team (under Takeo Doi)
6) Kawanishi Team
7) Aichi Team
8) Yokosuka Team
9) Mansyu Team
10) Hitachi Team (responsible for foreign licences, such as the HE-100)
11) Watanabe Team
12) Tachikawa Team

Each team can be assigned projects, a rough estimate can be as follows

New Airframe - 1 year
New Model - 3 months
New Variant - 1 month

*The A6M5 is a new model of the A6M airframe, the A6M5c is a variant of the A6M5 model

Teams are limited to the aiframes and models available historically, and only those developed by that company. A simple interface can be used such as the one in civilization II research "J2M aiframe is completed by Mitsubishi Fighter team, what should be researched next?" --> select from list J2M3 model, A6M5 model, A6M3 variant, A7M airframe"

Oh - I believe the research model in-game is flawed too. I won't delve into my problems with it as this thread is about a new future and witp II or so I believe, as according to previous team members development on the game stopped 2 years ago. Except for Michael patching things.

Additionally, if you wanted to have a fantasy mode witp, how about making R&D more organic. Plan requirements are made by HQ(you), R&D boffins try to fulfill that requirement; some work, some fail. I also liked how PTO II did R&D. Another option would be to just have a game of R&D and production and the AI tries to fight the war... All of these things will probably never make it into WITPII and never into AE and some of it sounds like an RTS by Paradox.

Cheers

How do you know your model can produce historically realistic results? Does your model actually generalise the historical patterns we see? Or does it fit the data but otherwise goes off the tracks? Is there a way of optimising your model to result in super aircraft being produced by mid-1943?

Additionally, if you wanted to have a fantasy mode witp, how about making R&D more organic. Plan requirements are made by HQ(you), R&D boffins try to fulfill that requirement; some work, some fail.

This would be the subject of a non-historic scenario, and I agree it would be an interesting
concept. Two conceivable options are present, a) a general specification is made by the player and teams are given the option to pursue that specification and some type of design is created with some performance margin +/- either below or above the specification and some time frame +/- the expected completion date

option b)
a calculator is used based on

i) type of airframe
ii) type of engine
iii) ordnance
iv) fuel capacity

and the results of performance are generated

i) max speed
ii) wing loading
iii) climb rate
iv) service rating
v) range

Then the teams are assigned to build this type

This is a realistic idea since historically, Horikoshi was told by the Koku Hombu
"put in the Sakae 12 engine, put 2x7.7 in the nose and 2x20mm in the wings,
put in 600L fuel capacity, don't put in any armor"

I would also like to see some type of option for materials
(materials is the subject of the next chapter is my corrections for production, a
historic supply of duralumin)

the Reisen was designed with a maximum use of materials quality, it is mostly
alloys of duralumin

some types such as the Zuiun had wooden wingtips and wooden fuselage to save
on materials, and some were constructed purely of wood such as Tachikawa's Ki-84,
of course the use of non-strategic materials has adverse effects on performance (weight)

The soviet choice was quantity over quality, and designers were ordered specifically
to use wood instead of duralumin since that was in short supply (though soviets managed
to build the Mig-1 and Mig-3, 400+ mph fighters in 1941 using wood construction)

Is there a way of optimising your model to result in super aircraft being produced by mid-1943?

This is the most important question. I am convinced the answer is no.

The performance of the types is limited by the availablity of engines.
Engine availability dates must be kept historical.

Some examples: i) the B7A Ryusei was available for production in the middle of 1942,
its engine (the HA-45) was not, therefore it was shelved until late in the war when the Homare was (somewhat) suitable for mass production.

ii) A7M1 Reppu. The airframe was completed in time to combat the new generation of allied fighters (mustang, thunderbolt). Its performance was poor (about 350 mph) since the aiframe was underpowered with a HA-45 and the HA-43 was not available.
The decision was made not to place it in production (though technically, it could have been
and that option can be available to the player).

The ideas of this production model are to allow some prioritization by the player which was available to the HQ at the time (the player can choose to accelerate twin-engined fighters to counter the 4EB threat if japan is on the defensive early on) or accelerate long-range escorts if the war is going well and japan is continuing to expand into 1943.

These options will be kept within the realm of plausability by the engine arrival dates.

ORIGINAL: Commander Stormwolf

Is there a way of optimising your model to result in super aircraft being produced by mid-1943?

This is the most important question. I am convinced the answer is no.

The performance of the types is limited by the availablity of engines.
Engine availability dates must be kept historical.

Some examples: i) the B7A Ryusei was available for production in the middle of 1942,
its engine (the HA-45) was not, therefore it was shelved until late in the war when the Homare was (somewhat) suitable for mass production.

ii) A7M1 Reppu. The airframe was completed in time to combat the new generation of allied fighters (mustang, thunderbolt). Its performance was poor (about 350 mph) since the aiframe was underpowered with a HA-45 and the HA-43 was not available.
The decision was made not to place it in production (though technically, it could have been
and that option can be available to the player).

The ideas of this production model are to allow some prioritization by the player which was available to the HQ at the time (the player can choose to accelerate twin-engined fighters to counter the 4EB threat if japan is on the defensive early on) or accelerate long-range escorts if the war is going well and japan is continuing to expand into 1943.

These options will be kept within the realm of plausability by the engine arrival dates.

Actually, engines of suitable power DO exist. In the US, an engine not suitable for fighters was used anyway - on the P-47 (and its ancestors) -
pretty similar to the use of a giant rotary engine on the FW-190. Even in Japan, a late war fighter is made by adapting the "wrong" engine with great success. If you want to you can rationalize engine substitution - provided you keep the power in the right range.

Even in Japan, a late war fighter is made by adapting the "wrong" engine with great success. If you want to you can rationalize engine substitution - provided you keep the power in the right range.

Radial engines available to japan in 1942

Small diameter:
Sakae-21 - 1150 hp
Kinsei-54 - 1300 hp

Large diameter:
Kasei-12 - 1530 hp
Ha-109 - 1530 hp

1943

Small diameter:
Kinsei-62 - 1500hp

1943

Large diameter:
Kasei-21 - 1850 hp

1944

Small diameter:
Homare-11: 1900hp

1945

Small diameter:
Homare-21: 2000hp

Large diameter:
Ha-43 - 2100hp

A plane of high performance requires an engine of such, and no such engine exists before 1944. True, the A6M8 could be created in 1943 however its performance was only marginally better than the A6M5 (about 360 versus 350 mph). Furthermore, if an engine of larger diameter was applied to an airframe that is unsuitable, a decrease in performance results.
The 'excellent fighter' you speak of is the Ki-100 which achieved 360mph (good in 1940, terrible in 1945). With the original engine, the Ki-61-II gave 378 mph.

The Ki-100 was considered a good fighter since it could actually take off and fight, instead of ~

a) crashing into the sea in transit from japan to the battlefield at new guinea
b)pulverized on the ground by B-24s at Wewak and Hollandia due to being unserviceable
c) be captured on the ground at Wewak and Hollandia due to being unserviceable

Also, the Ki-61-II and Ki-100 both have 20mm cannons on the cowling, probably the most efficient arrangement as per the soviet La-5.

Actually, engines of suitable power DO exist. In the US, an engine not suitable for fighters was used anyway - on the P-47 (and its ancestors) -
pretty similar to the use of a giant rotary engine on the FW-190.

US fighters were built large because:

a) good fuel allowed engines to deliver large power
b) no shortage of materials or manufacturing capacity to build large fighters

The Kasei-21 and Pratt-Whitney Double Wasp are identical in terms of weight and diameter.
The Kasei-21 delivers 1850 HP and the Pratt-Whitney Double wasp delivers 2000hp.

The difference in fuel quality means that Japanese engines deliver less power
and remain inferior until 1945 when the Ha-43 is introduced, thus a super-fighter
cannot be produced until that time and is, at best the equal of the super-fighters of the allies.