Matrix Games Forums

Can anyone list all of the upgrade paths for both the aircraft factories and air groups for v3.0? Or are they the same as listed in the matrix documentation for v2.2 (as far as position # in the table goes). That's the last time I saw all the upgrades listed. I have seem some cases listed, but not all in one place. Jeremy, you probably know all of these. Thanks in advance.

Another question. Several plane types were "removed" by the program on 1 Jan 44 on the Allied side; Vindicater, Buffalo, Devastator, Wirraway, etc. I saw this happen, and woe to someone who doensn't change out any groups still using these planes when the change hits.

Does the "removal" still take place? If so, on what plane types, because there are a lot of changes.

Plane upgrades in version 3.1:

Factory producing: Upgrades to:
F4F Wildcat - F6F Hellcat
F6F Hellcat - F8F Bearcat
SB2U Vindactor - SBD Dauntless
SBD Dauntless - SB2C Helldiver
TBD Devastator - TBF Avenger
TBF Avenger - TBM Avenger
Fulmar II - Spitfire VC
Albacore I - Barracuda I
Blenheim IV - Mosquito VI
Wirraway III - Boomerang I
Vengeance IV - FM2 Wildcat
Spitfire VIII - Spitfire XIV
Hurricane II - Spitfire VIII
Blenheim IF - Hurricane II
Beaufort V - Beaufighter X
Vildebeest I - Beaufort V
P-40 Warhawk - P-51D Mustang
P-38F Lghtning - P-38J Lghtning
P-38J Lghtning - P-47N Thndrblt
P-51B Mustang - P-80 Shooting
P-51D Mustang - P-51H Mustang
A-20 Havoc - A-26 Invader
B-26 Marauder - B-25 Mitchell
P-35 Republic - P-39 Airacobra
B-17 Fortress - B-24 Liberator
B-18 Bolo - B-17 Fortress
P-36 Hawk - P-39 Airacobra
P-39 Airacobra - P-38F Lghtning
A5M - A6M2 Reisen
A6M2 Reisen - A6M5 Reisen
A6M5 Reisen - A7M2 Reppu
D3A - D4Y Suisei
B5N - B6N Tenzan
Ki-27 Setsu - Ki-44 Shoki
Ki-43 Hayabusa - Ki-43-II Hybsa
Ki-44 Shoki - Ki-84 Hayate
Ki-61 Hien - Ki-100 Goshiki
J2M Raiden - N1K Shiden
Ki-43-II Hybsa - Ki-201 Karyu
Ki-45 Toryu - Ki-83
Ki-48 - Ki-67 Hiryu
Ki-21-II - Ki-67 Hiryu
G3M - P1Y Ginga
H6K - H8K
Ki-51 - Ki-102-Ko


Airgroup flying: Upgrades to:
F2A Buffalo - F4F Wildcat
F4F Wildcat - F6F Hellcat
F6F Hellcat - F8F Bearcat
SB2U Vindactor - SBD Dauntless
SBD Dauntless - SB2C Helldiver
TBD Devastator - TBF Avenger
TBF Avenger - TBM Avenger
Fulmar II - Spitfire VC
Barracuda I - TBM Avenger
Albacore I - Barracuda I
Blenheim IV - Vengeance IV
Boomerang I - Spitfire VIII
Wirraway III - P-40 Warhawk
Hudson I - Beaufort V
Vengeance IV - Mosquito VI
Buffalo I - Hurricane II
Spitfire VIII - Spitfire XIV
Hurricane II - Spitfire VIII
Blenheim IF - Hurricane II
Beaufort V - Beaufighter X
Mohawk IV - P-47D Thndrblt
Martin 139HW - A-20 Havoc
Vildebeest I - Beaufort V
P-47D Thndrblt - P-47N Thndrblt
P-40 Warhawk - P-51D Mustang
P-38F Lghtning - P-38J Lghtning
P-38J Lghtning - P-47D Thndrblt
P-51B Mustang - P-80 Shooting
P-51D Mustang - P-51H Mustang
A-20 Havoc - A-26 Invader
B-26 Marauder - B-25 Mitchell
P-35 Republic - P-39 Airacobra
B-17 Fortress - B-24 Liberator
B-18 Bolo - B-17 Fortress
P-36 Hawk - P-39 Airacobra
P-39 Airacobra - P-38F Lghtning
A5M - A6M2 Reisen
A6M2 Reisen - A6M5 Reisen
A6M5 Reisen - A7M2 Reppu
D3A - D4Y Suisei
B5N - B6N Tenzan
B6N Tenzan - B7A Ryusei
Ki-27 Setsu - Ki-43-II Hybsa
Ki-43 Hayabusa - Ki-44 Shoki
Ki-44 Shoki - Ki-84 Hayate
Ki-61 Hien - Ki-100 Goshiki
J2M Raiden - J7W Shinden
J1N Gekko - J7W Shinden
Ki-43-II Hybsa - Ki-201 Karyu
Ki-32 - Ki-45 Toryu
Ki-45 Toryu - Ki-83
Ki-48 - Ki-67 Hiryu
Ki-21-II - Ki-67 Hiryu
Ki-49 Donryu - Ki-67 Hiryu
G3M - G4M
G4M - P1Y Ginga
H6K - H8K
Ki-51 - Ki-102-Ko


What happens is the pool disappears for those aircraft that vanish. The airgroups still use that type, but the pool cannot be increased and attrition will wear them down.

Thanks to Mika for putting this together!

Thanks Jeremy and Mika, that was fast!

These are all based on the "slot" number of the aircraft type, correct?

How about the ship replacements? If I lose the Yorktown I will get a new Yorktown later. Same with US CA's and CL's. How does that work? Can it be adjusted? Can it be turned off?

Originally posted by showboat1
How about the ship replacements? If I lose the Yorktown I will get a new Yorktown later. Same with US CA's and CL's. How does that work? Can it be adjusted? Can it be turned off?

It is currently off.

The way it worked was lets say a US Heavy Cruiser was sunk, the game automatically changes its class to Baltimore and changest the status from SUNK to appearing in X many turns. It was not very accurate, as I stated in another post, the US could either have more or less ships sunk than historically which would either result that ACTUAL ships built not being built, or EXTRA ships suddenly appearing out of nowhere to replace sunk vessels.

It takes years to build a ship, and these are technically NOT replacements, just renamed vessels already under construction and nearing completion. It is better to assume that NO ships will be sunk and have these ships appear under their original names.

A simple formula is as follows with the 1.22 version of PacWar

X = Number of Essex Class that the game started with
Y = Number of Historically sunk vessels in the game
Z = Actual Historical number of Essex Class carriers.

X + Y = Z

X and Z are fixed, and in order to be a good game, should not be changed.

However, Y is very flexible.

X = 11 (Essex in PacWar)
Y = 4 (Numbers of Pre-War carriers replaced by Essex being built)
Z = 15 (historical number of Essex class vessels that appeared in the Pacific theatre from 1943-45)

(remember, Z must equal 15 as this was the total number of vessels that were completed in this period from 1943-45)

Lets say that the number of Pre-War CVs sunk was not 4, but was 2, the formula then is...

X + Y = Z
11 + 2 = 13 (see, it does not fit historically as Z should be 15, but is only 13, and you lose 2 Essex CV's)

Lets say that the number of Pre-War CVs sunk was not 4, but was 6, then the formula is then...

X + Y = Z
11 + 6 = 17 (You now have 2 more Essex class appearing when only 15 were built in this period [Z MUST = 15 as this is the total number of Essex comissioned from 1943-45]. US shipbuilding was good, but not THAT good!)

Now, if these ships appeared 2-3 years after they were sunk, then using the excuse that they were replacements is valid. However, since these ships appear around 1 year after the ship is sunk, it is assumed that they used ships almost completed and renamed them.



However, with 3.0 and 3.1 there will be many more Essex Class carriers, with Z equalling about 18 because the timeframe of PacWar extended into 1946.

The new system is a much simpler equation...

X = (Essex in PacWar)
Z = (Historical number of Essex in the time period in the Pacific)

X = Z

Both of these factors are fixed, and do not change with the course of the game (barring the loss of port facilities that cut down shipyard points to the level that you cannot build any more vessels).

The same formula worked for USN CA, CL, CLAA, DD and DE.

How about those slot numbers, are the aircraft upgrades a function of the slot or position in the tables?

It's nice to know since I wouldn't want my handy dandy A-1 Skyraider factory "upgrading" to Barracudas or something like that.

They are tied to a certain slot, so if you edit the F4F to something else, that something will upgrade to whatever is in the currently F6F slot.

If a plane isn't listed as upgrading, whatever is in its slot won't either.

And factory upgrades are separate from airgroup upgrades.

Jeremy, one problem i saw when making a test of shipyard and HI growth is that by 4/44 you only have one factory producing P-47Ds and two factories producing P-40s. This could be a problem playing a PBEM game with the full house rules you posted. one of the rules was players could NOT change factory production. when I let it go comp2comp, in 4/44 the allies had something like 3K+ F4F, F4U, F6F, P-40 and 87 P-47D. maybe the P-40 factories need to change to the P-47D? of course that leaves a hole with no P-51H. hummm, i'll think on this.

also jeremy, could i request a small change in the factory upgrade list? could P-36 -> P-39 be replaced with PBY -> PBM?

Thanks for the list, Jeremy. I noticed in a solitaire '41 3.0 game that Wirraways were quickly upgraded to P-40's. But in a two layer game ahs not occured after an equivalent # of turns (it seems, but then my opponent moves about as fast as the pre-global warming glaciers on New Guinea),
can my changing these flying coffins to other aircraft types ( say f4f's ) before their "upgrade date" make them never change to P-40s'?

And WHEN exactly do the upgrades occur? Could you list that?

The upgrade should commense on or about the arrival of the airplane type.

For example, the P-39 factory should change to the P-38E when the P-38E arrives.

jeremy, one thing i tried agains the AI and it seemed to work good was this:

increase the 3 B-26 groups to 36 aircraft each. put 36 B-26's in the pool. This way the allies get 3 full B-26 groups with a few replacements( about 52 total). the allies get a few B-26 groups in early 42 but they have to be phased out by about mid 42. this might 'cure' the B-26 problem.

There is no need to replace an upgrade, there is a full table so that every plane could upgrade if that was wanted.

!!!: Airgroups upgrade only if they are on day or night combat status. Naval interdiction and training groups don't upgrade (until changed to day or night combat).

Originally posted by Mika Väliviita
!!!: Airgroups upgrade only if they are on day or night combat status. Naval interdiction and training groups don't upgrade (until changed to day or night combat).

Thanks! I'd suspected that was what was going on, but I couldn't be certain until now.