Matrix Games Forums

Posted: **Tue Nov 01, 2011 12:58 pm**

I'd like to raise a point of order on AI tactic's. I am playing the first scenario as the Allies vs. the AI and I am in the later part of January 42. I have found a number of weird Japanese surface TF's raiding a number of my island out posts. First it was a cruiser force sent from Tarawa to Pago Pago, next was another surface cruiser force sent against Midway, then I discovered a battleship surface force dent against Noumea, an another BB force sent against Canton, and finally another cruiser force sent against Midway again. This is very non-standard INJ tactic's, more like something the German's would do. This sort of behavior of the INJ should be relegated to the 2nd scenario, a more wild and woolly lug fest. The scripting on this scenario needs to be tweaked IMHO. I also found a Japanese TF slated to invade the area northwest along the coast from Port Moresby. It's a 2 ship TF with a small base force on board. Again a very non-standard scripting especially since Port Morseby has LBA. [:(]

I am also concerned about the AI's use of the Japanese subs, more like U-Boats than I-Boats. But I can live with it, but really the I-boats supported the Combined fleet and were not used like U-Boats. [X(]

I know the AI isn't perfect and the game is best played against a human, but still it does leave one with a non-historical feel to the game when the AI does something strange.

Posted: **Tue Nov 01, 2011 1:16 pm**

What? Japan is supposed to fight a war by your rules?

Posted: **Tue Nov 01, 2011 2:07 pm**

You can stop AI using ahistorical tactics/strategies if you delete higher numbered AI files from scenario. But they sure bring lot of surprises, Andy Mac was devious when creating those scripts. [8D]

Posted: **Tue Nov 01, 2011 2:14 pm**

forces me to keep honest, but most of the raiding parties die a horrible death for little gain by the AI.

Posted: **Tue Nov 01, 2011 2:15 pm**

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

What? Japan is supposed to fight a war by your rules?

These sort of raids, as I said , are not historical IJN Tactic's. Better to put these scripts in the 2nd scenario. The Japanese were meticulous in their planning, there undoing at Midway. These script are a bit cow-boyish, comparable to the US Doolittle raid.

Posted: **Tue Nov 01, 2011 2:16 pm**

ORIGINAL: soticrandy

forces me to keep honest, but most of the raiding parties die a horrible death for little gain by the AI.

Good point, a waste. But in scenario 2 it would keep you on your toes.

Posted: **Tue Nov 01, 2011 3:04 pm**

I-boats were used against allied shipping from a day one... They sunk over 180 merchants or tankers, and damged many more... If you don't even know that, I must wonder how much you really know about japanese tactics... [:-]

Posted: **Tue Nov 01, 2011 3:34 pm**

ORIGINAL: Puhis

I-boats were used against allied shipping from a day one... They sunk over 180 merchants or tankers, and damged many more... If you don't even know that, I must wonder how much you really know about japanese tactics... [:-]

An your such an expert? Wow ... self appointed and anointed expert. Dude your rude and $%^&*, try to keep it a friendly forum rather than a contest of egos.

INJ sub tactics were in support of the fleet unlike USN and the German Navy sub tactic that were directed against shipping/commerce. Sure they sunk the occasional ship they came across but for them to camp out along the west coast is a bit much. IMHO. So 180 ships for the entire war?

Posted: **Tue Nov 01, 2011 3:58 pm**

ORIGINAL: Capt Cliff

I'd like to raise a point of order on AI tactic's. I am playing the first scenario as the Allies vs. the AI and I am in the later part of January 42. I have found a number of weird Japanese surface TF's raiding a number of my island out posts. First it was a cruiser force sent from Tarawa to Pago Pago, next was another surface cruiser force sent against Midway, then I discovered a battleship surface force dent against Noumea, an another BB force sent against Canton, and finally another cruiser force sent against Midway again. This is very non-standard INJ tactic's, more like something the German's would do. This sort of behavior of the INJ should be relegated to the 2nd scenario, a more wild and woolly lug fest. The scripting on this scenario needs to be tweaked IMHO. I also found a Japanese TF slated to invade the area northwest along the coast from Port Moresby. It's a 2 ship TF with a small base force on board. Again a very non-standard scripting especially since Port Morseby has LBA. [:(]

I am also concerned about the AI's use of the Japanese subs, more like U-Boats than I-Boats. But I can live with it, but really the I-boats supported the Combined fleet and were not used like U-Boats. [X(]

I know the AI isn't perfect and the game is best played against a human, but still it does leave one with a non-historical feel to the game when the AI does something strange.

The AI chooses from a number of pre-generated scripts at the beginning of the scenario in order to 'mix things' up from game to game. Some of the moves can be a little unexpected. As for the raiding component. personally i think its kind of neat in that it keeps you on your toes. The AI doesn't abuse this tactic nearly as much as human players do. Its pretty standard to send singular cruisers and/or a cruiser with a DD escort deep into enemy territory in the hopes of trying to pick off the typically lightly defended (PB...SC etc) small suppy and troop convoys....such encounters are usually deadly. While 'raiding' was done, the tactic is regrettably over-effective because of player abilities to micromanage their forces turn by turn and use of the Do Not Retire feature to prevent the raider unit from aborting. The AI will use subs in similar fashion.

In summary, the AI can't be expected to play according to a national doctrine ....and a human player who does is hard to find, but can be done if you screen your opponent and communicate openly about what kind of "game" you want to play/experience. To use the sub example, a player might not agree to only or mainly operating Sixth Fleet as an adjunct to Combined Fleet as historically, it was used from time to time to hunt commerce. The player might agree to limit commerce missions however...just as some players will house rule use of night bombing or the # of 4E squadrons per airbase to avoid the 8th AF effect in the pacific etc etc.

However you can't negotiate with an AI. It doesn't feel pity or remorse and it wont stop....EVER.......until you are DEAD. (name that movie!) [:D]

Posted: **Tue Nov 01, 2011 4:05 pm**

INJ sub tactics were in support of the fleet unlike USN and the German Navy sub tactic that were directed against shipping/commerce. Sure they sunk the occasional ship they came across but for them to camp out along the west coast is a bit much. IMHO. So 180 ships for the entire war?

Clearly, you have never seen the movie "1941". Those Japs were every where!

Posted: **Tue Nov 01, 2011 4:19 pm**

few know about the famous Xmas tree raid by Japanese SNLF's.

Posted: **Tue Nov 01, 2011 4:50 pm**

For any of you unfamiliar with Knavey, an "old salt" who used to haunt these halls, he would make tongue-in-cheek posts about improbable events that proved the game was broken....yet the improbable events had actually occurred. In that spirit:

1) Hundreds of American soldiers die in a training accident off the English coast while in training for D-Day? Bah, couldn't happen!

2) Japanese release incendiary balloons meant to strike the forests of the northwest USA? Hah, what a joke!

3) Americans seriously look at the possibility of releasing bats carrying incendiary devices to torch Japan's "wood and paper" buildings? You're kidding, right?

4) Doolittle Raid? No way.

5) Tugboat pilot leads big convoy into friendly minefield off Iceland Coast costing a dozen or more ships? I don't think so.

6) Japanese soldiers and sailors surrendering 25 years after the war? Pfft.

7) Biplanes score a torp hit on Germany's greatest battleship, rendering her immobilized? Yeah, and that was when I was dating Audrey Hepburn.

8) Japanese carriers raiding Trincomalee? Um, what would they be doing way out there in the middle of nowhere?

9) Allies know where Admiral Yamamoto is at a particular hour of one day and arrange to shoot him down? Sounds like finding a needle in a Rhode Island-sized haystack to me.

10) German officers successfully detonate a bomb in tight quarters occupied by Adolph Hitler (but don't kill him)? Right. And I suppose the son of an American president will be strolling about the beaches of Normandy leading his troops even though he is pretty dadgum old and has serious health problems.

Where in the WORLD is the challenge and realism of simulating a war in which only the known and the "feasible" can happen?

Posted: **Tue Nov 01, 2011 5:01 pm**

PaddleRebel,

You dated Audrey Hepburn?

Posted: **Tue Nov 01, 2011 5:17 pm**

ORIGINAL: Capt Cliff

INJ sub tactics were in support of the fleet unlike USN and the German Navy sub tactic that were directed against shipping/commerce. Sure they sunk the occasional ship they came across but for them to camp out along the west coast is a bit much. IMHO. So 180 ships for the entire war?

My "ships sunk by I-boat" list is probably incomplete, but here are 3 first months. Quite a many "occasional" ships, I think... Warships (like CV Saratoga and K-XVI) are missing from that list.

7th Dec 1941: I-26 sink US cargo ship Cynthia Olson, Eastern Pacific
10th Dec 1941: I-10 sink Panamian cargo ship Donerail, near Hawaii
10th Dec 1941: I-124 sink british cargo ship Hereldawins, near Luzon
11th Dec 1941: I-156 sink norwegian cargo ship Hai Tung, near Singapore?
12th Dec 1941: I-9 sink US cargo ship Lahaina, near Hawaii
14th Dec 1941: I-4 sink norwegian cargo ship Hoeg Merchant, near Hawaii
17th Dec 1941: I-175 sink Us cargo ship Manini, near Hawaii
19th Dec 1941: I-172 sink US cagro ship Prusa, near Hawaii
22nd Dec 1941: I-17 damage US tanker Emidio, West Coast of US
23th Dec 1941: I-17 damage US tanker Doheny, West coast of US
23rd Dec 1941: I-21 sink US tanker Mentebello, West Coast of US
23rd Dec 1941: I-21 damage US tanker Idaho, West Coast of US
24th Dec 1942: I-23 damage US Cargo ship Dorothy Phillips, West Coast of US
25th Dec 1941: I-19 damage US cargo ship Absoroka, West Coast of US
27th Dec 1941: I-25 damage US tanker Connecticut, West Coast of US

3th Jan 1942: I-158 sink dutch cargo ship Langkoeas, Java Sea
5th Jan 1942: I-156 sink british cargo ship Kwangtung, Indian Ocean
7th Jan 1942: I-156 sink dutch cargo ship Van Rees, South of Java
7th Jan 1942: I-157 sink dutch cargo ship Djirak, Bali Sea
8th Jan 1942: I-156 sink dutch cargo ship Van Riebeeck, South of Java
9th Jan 1942: I-156 sink dutch cargo ship Camphuys, Java Sea
9th Jan 1942: I-165 sink dutch cargo ship Bankoelen, Java Sea
11th Jan 1942: I-166 sink US cargo ship Liberty Glo, Java Sea
12th Jan 1942: I-156 damage dutch cargo ship Patras, near Bali
14th Jan 1942: I-165 sink british cargo ship Jalarajan, Indian Ocean
20th Jan 1942: I-159 sink norwegian cargo ship Eidsvold, Indian Ocean
21st Jan 1942: I-166 sink panamian cagro ship Nord, Andaman Sea
22nd Jan 1942: I-166 sink british cargo ship Chak Sang, Bay of Bengal
23rd Jan 1942: I-172 sink USN Oiler Neches, near Hawaii
25th Jan 1942: I-159 sink british cargo ship Giang Sen(?), Indian Ocean
28th Jan 1942: I-64 damage british cargo ship Idar, Indian Ocean
29th Jan 1942: I-64 sink US cargo ship Florence Luckenbach, Indian Ocean
29th Jan 1942: I-171 sink US small cargo ship General Royal T. Frank, near Hawaii
30th Jan 1942: I-64 sink Indian cargo ship Jalatarang, Indian Ocean
31st Jan 1942: I-64 sink Indian cango ship Jalapalaka, Indian Ocean
31st Jan 1942: I-162 damage british tanker Longwood, near Ceylon

3rd Feb 1942: I-162 damage british tanker Spondilius, near Ceylon
4th Feb 1942: I-156 sink dutch cargo ship Togian, Indian Ocean
7th Feb 1942: I-153 sink unidentified cargo ship, south of Java
7th Feb 1942: I-155 sink dutch passenger ship(?) Van Cloon, Java Sea
9th Feb 1942: I-165 damage british cargo ship Laomedon, Indian Ocean
13th Feb 1942: I-155 sink british cargo ship Derrymore, Java Sea
14th Feb 1942: I-166 sink british cargo ship Kamuning, Indian Ocean
15th Feb 1942: I-165 sink danish cagro ship Johanne Justen, Indian Ocean
20th Feb 1942: I-165 sink british cargo ship Bhima, Indian Ocean
22nd Feb 1942: I-158 sink dutch passenger ship Pijnacker Hordijk, Java Sea
25th Feb 1942: I-158 sink dutch cargo ship Boeroe, Java Sea
27th Feb 1942: I-153 sink dutch cargo ship Moesi, Java Sea
28th Feb 1942: I-153 sink birtish cargo ship City of Manchester, Indian Ocean?
28th Feb 1942: I-158 damage british tanker British Justice, Java Sea
28th Feb 1942: I-2 sink british cargo ship Nam Youg in Indian Ocean
28th Feb 1942: I-4 sink singaporean cargo ship Ban Ho Guan in Indian Ocean

EDIT: That's 41 ships glugluglu in less than 3 months. I wonder how many JFB can do the same?

Many I-boats operated West Coast of US. Last ships they sunk were US tanker Larry Doheny (6th Oct 1942) and missidentified Soviet minelayer L-16 (11th Oct 1942). I-25 sunk both of them.

Most successful I-boat was probably I-10. That one got 15 "kills", 13 cargo ships and 2 tankers. At least I-21, I-26 and I-27 sunk 10 ships or more.

Posted: **Tue Nov 01, 2011 7:14 pm**

ORIGINAL: Puhis

ORIGINAL: Capt Cliff

INJ sub tactics were in support of the fleet unlike USN and the German Navy sub tactic that were directed against shipping/commerce. Sure they sunk the occasional ship they came across but for them to camp out along the west coast is a bit much. IMHO. So 180 ships for the entire war?

My "ships sunk by I-boat" list is probably incomplete, but here are 3 first months. Quite a many "occasional" ships, I think... Warships (like CV Saratoga and K-XVI) are missing from that list.

7th Dec 1941: I-26 sink US cargo ship Cynthia Olson, Eastern Pacific
10th Dec 1941: I-10 sink Panamian cargo ship Donerail, near Hawaii
10th Dec 1941: I-124 sink british cargo ship Hereldawins, near Luzon
11th Dec 1941: I-156 sink norwegian cargo ship Hai Tung, near Singapore?
12th Dec 1941: I-9 sink US cargo ship Lahaina, near Hawaii
14th Dec 1941: I-4 sink norwegian cargo ship Hoeg Merchant, near Hawaii
17th Dec 1941: I-175 sink Us cargo ship Manini, near Hawaii
19th Dec 1941: I-172 sink US cagro ship Prusa, near Hawaii
22nd Dec 1941: I-17 damage US tanker Emidio, West Coast of US
23th Dec 1941: I-17 damage US tanker Doheny, West coast of US
23rd Dec 1941: I-21 sink US tanker Mentebello, West Coast of US
23rd Dec 1941: I-21 damage US tanker Idaho, West Coast of US
24th Dec 1942: I-23 damage US Cargo ship Dorothy Phillips, West Coast of US
25th Dec 1941: I-19 damage US cargo ship Absoroka, West Coast of US
27th Dec 1941: I-25 damage US tanker Connecticut, West Coast of US

3th Jan 1942: I-158 sink dutch cargo ship Langkoeas, Java Sea
5th Jan 1942: I-156 sink british cargo ship Kwangtung, Indian Ocean
7th Jan 1942: I-156 sink dutch cargo ship Van Rees, South of Java
7th Jan 1942: I-157 sink dutch cargo ship Djirak, Bali Sea
8th Jan 1942: I-156 sink dutch cargo ship Van Riebeeck, South of Java
9th Jan 1942: I-156 sink dutch cargo ship Camphuys, Java Sea
9th Jan 1942: I-165 sink dutch cargo ship Bankoelen, Java Sea
11th Jan 1942: I-166 sink US cargo ship Liberty Glo, Java Sea
12th Jan 1942: I-156 damage dutch cargo ship Patras, near Bali
14th Jan 1942: I-165 sink british cargo ship Jalarajan, Indian Ocean
20th Jan 1942: I-159 sink norwegian cargo ship Eidsvold, Indian Ocean
21st Jan 1942: I-166 sink panamian cagro ship Nord, Andaman Sea
22nd Jan 1942: I-166 sink british cargo ship Chak Sang, Bay of Bengal
23rd Jan 1942: I-172 sink USN Oiler Neches, near Hawaii
25th Jan 1942: I-159 sink british cargo ship Giang Sen(?), Indian Ocean
28th Jan 1942: I-64 damage british cargo ship Idar, Indian Ocean
29th Jan 1942: I-64 sink US cargo ship Florence Luckenbach, Indian Ocean
29th Jan 1942: I-171 sink US small cargo ship General Royal T. Frank, near Hawaii
30th Jan 1942: I-64 sink Indian cargo ship Jalatarang, Indian Ocean
31st Jan 1942: I-64 sink Indian cango ship Jalapalaka, Indian Ocean
31st Jan 1942: I-162 damage british tanker Longwood, near Ceylon

3rd Feb 1942: I-162 damage british tanker Spondilius, near Ceylon
4th Feb 1942: I-156 sink dutch cargo ship Togian, Indian Ocean
7th Feb 1942: I-153 sink unidentified cargo ship, south of Java
7th Feb 1942: I-155 sink dutch passenger ship(?) Van Cloon, Java Sea
9th Feb 1942: I-165 damage british cargo ship Laomedon, Indian Ocean
13th Feb 1942: I-155 sink british cargo ship Derrymore, Java Sea
14th Feb 1942: I-166 sink british cargo ship Kamuning, Indian Ocean
15th Feb 1942: I-165 sink danish cagro ship Johanne Justen, Indian Ocean
20th Feb 1942: I-165 sink british cargo ship Bhima, Indian Ocean
22nd Feb 1942: I-158 sink dutch passenger ship Pijnacker Hordijk, Java Sea
25th Feb 1942: I-158 sink dutch cargo ship Boeroe, Java Sea
27th Feb 1942: I-153 sink dutch cargo ship Moesi, Java Sea
28th Feb 1942: I-153 sink birtish cargo ship City of Manchester, Indian Ocean?
28th Feb 1942: I-158 damage british tanker British Justice, Java Sea
28th Feb 1942: I-2 sink british cargo ship Nam Youg in Indian Ocean
28th Feb 1942: I-4 sink singaporean cargo ship Ban Ho Guan in Indian Ocean

EDIT: That's 41 ships glugluglu in less than 3 months. I wonder how many JFB can do the same?

Many I-boats operated West Coast of US. Last ships they sunk were US tanker Larry Doheny (6th Oct 1942) and missidentified Soviet minelayer L-16 (11th Oct 1942). I-25 sunk both of them.

Most successful I-boat was probably I-10. That one got 15 "kills", 13 cargo ships and 2 tankers. At least I-21, I-26 and I-27 sunk 10 ships or more.

Try this website; http://www.combinedfleet.com/ss.htm 184 ships sunk by INJ subs vs 1079 for USN. This also states the subs were not very steathy and were slow to dive and easy to spot. Oh, and had limited range except for a small number.

Posted: **Tue Nov 01, 2011 7:24 pm**

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

ORIGINAL: Capt Cliff

I'd like to raise a point of order on AI tactic's. I am playing the first scenario as the Allies vs. the AI and I am in the later part of January 42. I have found a number of weird Japanese surface TF's raiding a number of my island out posts. First it was a cruiser force sent from Tarawa to Pago Pago, next was another surface cruiser force sent against Midway, then I discovered a battleship surface force dent against Noumea, an another BB force sent against Canton, and finally another cruiser force sent against Midway again. This is very non-standard INJ tactic's, more like something the German's would do. This sort of behavior of the INJ should be relegated to the 2nd scenario, a more wild and woolly lug fest. The scripting on this scenario needs to be tweaked IMHO. I also found a Japanese TF slated to invade the area northwest along the coast from Port Moresby. It's a 2 ship TF with a small base force on board. Again a very non-standard scripting especially since Port Morseby has LBA. [:(]

I am also concerned about the AI's use of the Japanese subs, more like U-Boats than I-Boats. But I can live with it, but really the I-boats supported the Combined fleet and were not used like U-Boats. [X(]

I know the AI isn't perfect and the game is best played against a human, but still it does leave one with a non-historical feel to the game when the AI does something strange.

The AI chooses from a number of pre-generated scripts at the beginning of the scenario in order to 'mix things' up from game to game. Some of the moves can be a little unexpected. As for the raiding component. personally i think its kind of neat in that it keeps you on your toes. The AI doesn't abuse this tactic nearly as much as human players do. Its pretty standard to send singular cruisers and/or a cruiser with a DD escort deep into enemy territory in the hopes of trying to pick off the typically lightly defended (PB...SC etc) small suppy and troop convoys....such encounters are usually deadly. While 'raiding' was done, the tactic is regrettably over-effective because of player abilities to micromanage their forces turn by turn and use of the Do Not Retire feature to prevent the raider unit from aborting. The AI will use subs in similar fashion.

In summary, the AI can't be expected to play according to a national doctrine ....and a human player who does is hard to find, but can be done if you screen your opponent and communicate openly about what kind of "game" you want to play/experience. To use the sub example, a player might not agree to only or mainly operating Sixth Fleet as an adjunct to Combined Fleet as historically, it was used from time to time to hunt commerce. The player might agree to limit commerce missions however...just as some players will house rule use of night bombing or the # of 4E squadrons per airbase to avoid the 8th AF effect in the pacific etc etc.

However you can't negotiate with an AI. It doesn't feel pity or remorse and it wont stop....EVER.......until you are DEAD. (name that movie!) [:D]

Is or is not the AI scripted to perform certain tasks? This unrestricted submarine warfare is better placed in scenario 2, IMHO. I am looking for a historical feel first, then the wild and woolly OK Corral gun fight. The AI is a learning tool, practice for when you fight a human opponent. I brought up a couple of strange anomalies, asking the forum to comment. I assumed the first scenario was a "historical" scenario. BTW games vs. a human is not a problem, but games vs. the AI, I feel, that scenario #1 should be tweaked.

Posted: **Tue Nov 01, 2011 7:40 pm**

ORIGINAL: Capt Cliff
Is or is not the AI scripted to perform certain tasks? This unrestricted submarine warfare is better placed in scenario 2, IMHO. I am looking for a historical feel first, then the wild and woolly OK Corral gun fight. The AI is a learning tool, practice for when you fight a human opponent. I brought up a couple of strange anomalies, asking the forum to comment. I assumed the first scenario was a "historical" scenario. BTW games vs. a human is not a problem, but games vs. the AI, I feel, that scenario #1 should be tweaked.

They are not anomolies. Your expectations simply don't match what the AI does. I'm sorry this distresses you. Andy Mac (who wrote the scripts) would be in a better position to explain the finer points of AI scripting as that was one of his primary tasks during AE development. An AI can be scripted to defend/assault certain objectives in preference over others and to "react" when certain conditions are triggered. What you want to see is a specific form of behavior while the AI is going about it's assigned tasks. (i.e. Subs that don't go after merchants.....or one that doesn't raid bases with small surface forces like how most PBEM players do) I do know that Andy tried to create as challenging an AI as possible of which one prime ingredient was multiple scripts to allow the AI different paths/options in each game. Ultimately......an AI is not a thinking opponent and you cannot expect it to consistantly perform practical/logical decisions much less confirm strictly to a historical doctrine. The best thing one can do is present an AI that, if you don't exploit it's weaknesses can give you a decent fight. That was the biggest goal in AE.

In all seriousness your going to be even more perplexed in PBEM play because many players do things that maximize their gameplay but don't exactly track with history. Thats the price one pays in Gary Grigsby games where players have such minute detail control over individual ships and LCU's and air units.

Posted: **Tue Nov 01, 2011 7:55 pm**

The AI is a learning tool, practice for when you fight a human opponent.

In preparing to fight a human opponent, I think the AI is a tool to learn the game mechanics. PBEM is in no way related to fighting the AI. As Nikademus says, you are going to be very perplexed by a human opponent ...

Wa

Posted: **Tue Nov 01, 2011 8:37 pm**

Since when does the AI have to follow exact historical timelines? 

It's good that the AI mixes things up a bit.  It takes a lot of predictability from the game and makes it more exciting, while still keeping things plausible.  If I knew for certain - other than info gleaned from sigint - everything that the Japanese would do in the game based on what they did, when they did it, which assets and tactics they used, etc., in real life, then that would take away much of the point in playing the game against the AI at all, quite frankly.

Posted: **Tue Nov 01, 2011 9:09 pm**

I really see nothing wrong with it, the Player isn't keyholed into making the same mistakes as witnessed during WW2 neither should the AI. The raids or threat of them keep you honest, the eventual outcome is never in doubt.

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