Page 1 of 1

Possible to model Yugoslavia?

Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2011 3:44 pm
by TAIL_GUNNER
Got this big empty spot on the map where historically, lots of interesting things happened...
(Anyone notice it's misspelled on the map...Yougoslavia[8D])

Modeling the German forces would be easy, but not sure how I could do Tito's forces.

My main concern would be where would they get supply and replacements from.

Any creative thoughts from anyone?

RE: Possible to model Yugoslavia?

Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2011 5:04 pm
by Great_Ajax
Cant be done due to hard coded limitations. I already tried.


Trey
ORIGINAL: TAIL_GUNNER

Got this big empty spot on the map where historically, lots of interesting things happened...
(Anyone notice it's misspelled on the map...Yougoslavia[8D])

Modeling the German forces would be easy, but not sure how I could do Tito's forces.

My main concern would be where would they get supply and replacements from.

Any creative thoughts from anyone?

RE: Possible to model Yugoslavia?

Posted: Sat Dec 10, 2011 5:41 pm
by TAIL_GUNNER
ORIGINAL: el hefe

Cant be done due to hard coded limitations. I already tried.


Trey

Can you elaborate on which hard coded limitations?

RE: Possible to model Yugoslavia?

Posted: Sun Dec 11, 2011 3:30 pm
by Great_Ajax
The Yugoslav region is hardcoded so that units may not enter the area during its movement phase. You can put units in there in the editor but any other units are prevented from moving into the area during play.

Trey
ORIGINAL: TAIL_GUNNER

ORIGINAL: el hefe

Cant be done due to hard coded limitations. I already tried.


Trey

Can you elaborate on which hard coded limitations?

RE: Possible to model Yugoslavia?

Posted: Mon Dec 12, 2011 5:57 pm
by Naughteous Maximus
I'm playing with Yugoslavia. Its just the Germans and Italians, and German-Croatian divisions, but I have the complete Axis OOB for the Balkans stationed there historically throughout the war. In the game, they just occupy and fill the void by having troops stationed there.

RE: Possible to model Yugoslavia?

Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2011 12:59 pm
by Cavalry Corp
Thats interesting...
And remember many of these partisans were fighting each other at times.

RE: Possible to model Yugoslavia?

Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2011 1:51 pm
by Apollo11
Hi all,
ORIGINAL: cavalry

Thats interesting...
And remember many of these partisans were fighting each other at times.

Partisans didn't fight each other in former Yugoslavia during WWII...


Leo "Apollo11"

RE: Possible to model Yugoslavia?

Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2011 2:03 pm
by Cavalry Corp
From Wiki and a program on TV the other night.

The war was fought in occupied Yugoslavia during World War II (1941–1945) between the Yugoslav resistance forces and the Axis Powers. During the war two guerrilla resistance armies sprang up: the communist-led and republican Yugoslav Partisans; and the royalist Chetnik movement. In spite of sporadic acts of resistance, after 1941 the Chetniks adopted a "policy of collaboration", and collaborated extensively and systematically with the Italian occupation forces until the Italian capitulation in September 1943, and beginning in 1944, also with Nazi German and Ustaše forces.[11][12] A parallel civil war between the two movements soon ensued.

RE: Possible to model Yugoslavia?

Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2011 2:12 pm
by Cavalry Corp

RE: Possible to model Yugoslavia?

Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2011 2:18 pm
by Cavalry Corp
Also this one is a bit easier to follow.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/worldwars/ ... shtml#four

RE: Possible to model Yugoslavia?

Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2011 3:57 pm
by Apollo11
Hi all,
ORIGINAL: cavalry

From Wiki and a program on TV the other night.

The war was fought in occupied Yugoslavia during World War II (1941–1945) between the Yugoslav resistance forces and the Axis Powers. During the war two guerrilla resistance armies sprang up: the communist-led and republican Yugoslav Partisans; and the royalist Chetnik movement. In spite of sporadic acts of resistance, after 1941 the Chetniks adopted a "policy of collaboration", and collaborated extensively and systematically with the Italian occupation forces until the Italian capitulation in September 1943, and beginning in 1944, also with Nazi German and Ustaše forces.[11][12] A parallel civil war between the two movements soon ensued.

Serbian "Chetniks" never ever were partisan movement and they didn't actually fight the Germans - in fact they collaborated with both Germans and Italian occupiers!

Thus there was no combat between several partisan movements - there was just one partisan force that fought against German and other occupiers...

Believe - the Wikipedia and "History Channel" is poor poor source of reliable info... [;)]


Leo "Apollo11"

RE: Possible to model Yugoslavia?

Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2011 4:05 pm
by Apollo11
Hi all,
ORIGINAL: cavalry

Sorry here is the link

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yugoslav_Front

ORIGINAL: cavalry

Also this one is a bit easier to follow.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/worldwars/ ... shtml#four

From my info you can see where I am from... [;)]


Both links you gave are widely known - but they are not historically correct!


BTW, the BBC in the article still tries to "reclaim" old British politics towards former Yugoslavia where ex Yugoslav Monarchy was closely related to British Monarchy (even personally via family ties). The truth was quite different and Churchill learned it the hard way when his intelligence officers on ground in former Yugoslavia in 1943 related to him the truth that "Chetniks" were collaborating with both Germans and Italians and that all weapons given to them by teh British was only used against true partisans and not against German and other occupiers... after that all British help stopped for Serbian "Chetniks"...


Leo "Apollo11"

RE: Possible to model Yugoslavia?

Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2011 4:12 pm
by Cavalry Corp
Sorry we got in a mix, then the Chetniks were not partisans in that they were not Communist or backed by Russia, I know that. So they sort of collaberated against the Communist partisans and were so dispised by the partisans as a term used only for Russian or Russian backed militia or what ever. At the same time they were initally fighting to get the Germans and Italians out before they realsed they hated the Communists more?
Is that it - or am I in a right muddle:) ?

it was on the BBC about the SOE involvement from the UK.

I see you are from Croatia - I have been sailing off the coast there, its a magic place- but they sea was very cold in September.



RE: Possible to model Yugoslavia?

Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2011 5:15 pm
by Apollo11
Hi all,
ORIGINAL: cavalry

Sorry we got in a mix, then the Chetniks were not partisans in that they were not Communist or backed by Russia, I know that. So they sort of collaberated against the Communist partisans and were so dispised by the partisans as a term used only for Russian or Russian backed militia or what ever. At the same time they were initally fighting to get the Germans and Italians out before they realsed they hated the Communists more?
Is that it - or am I in a right muddle:) ?

it was on the BBC about the SOE involvement from the UK.

I see you are from Croatia - I have been sailing off the coast there, its a magic place- but they sea was very cold in September.

The Wikipedia article is more accurate than the BBC - the BBC article is rather bad.


Short history:


#1
Former Yugoslavia was created after WWI - for the first time it was one unified country with several different nations (that never before lived in one single country due to various historical circumstances). The constitutional nations of the former Yugoslavia were Slovenians, Serbs and Croats.


#2
Ruling Serbian royal family had close ties to British Royal family and generally the former Yugoslavia was considered strong ally to both France and Britain in the period between WWI and WWII.


#3
As WWII started in 1939 and things in that part of Europe deteriorated rapidly the former Yugoslavia was drawn closer and closer toward Axis powers (Germany and Italy).

This was due to fact that all other neighboring countries (except Greece) were getting "under Axis umbrella" and the fact that the first former Yugoslavian King Alexander was killed in 1934. His very young son that succeeded him had no actual power and government of former Yugoslavia in the end joined the so-called "Tripartite Pact" in spring of 1941. This meant that former Yugoslavia actually joined the Axis (just like neighboring Hungary, Romania and Bulgaria).


#4
In march 1941 there was British backed coup that tried to change the alliance of former Yugoslavia back toward British but Hitler was furious. Germany invaded in April and in just few days occupied former Yugoslavia. Ruling Serbian royal family fled to Britain.


#5
The first one to rise against occupiers and the only true partisans were Tito's partisans who actually fought the enemy (Germans and Italians)!


#6
Some of the former royal Yugoslav officers organized resistance in Serbia proper - their colloquial name were Serbian "Chetniks".

Their main and only goal was maintaining of Yugoslavia as country ruled by Serbian royal family and not actual fighting against German and Italian occupiers.


#7
Tito's partisans were very very wide group of people and not just communists - this is very important thing to know.

They consisted of wide variety of people all united to fight occupiers and to create free country (and preferely without ruling Royal Serbian family).

The communism was actually downplayed for the most part because the partisan movement wanted big support from whole population - the communists didn't have such big backing at the time at all.

The only thing that actually related the Tito's partisan movement with communism was red star on front of a military hat - but that was not actually considered as pro-communism thing - it was more the anti-fascism thing (similar to what happened Spain before WWII).

BTW, I still have several leaflets from 1942 that my family got. In those leaflets there is no mention at all regarding communism, Soviet Union or Stalin - in it there is only call for arms and fight against German and Italian occupiers - interesting isn't it!!!

Please note that Soviet Union was thousands of kilometers away and under heavy attack by Germany at that time. It was, therefore, 100% impossible that any aid was given to Tito's partisans by Stalin!

All the Tito's partisans had at that time were weapons they took from German and Italian occupiers!!!


#8
British government hoped and believed that Serbian "Chetniks" fought the Germans and Italians.

Why was this?

Because the exiled former Yugoslav government (and Serbian royal family) all resided in Britain and they persuaded Churchill that "Chetniks" are fighting the Germans and Italians.

Churchill then ordered that both Tito's partisans and Serbian "Chetniks" are helped.

British governament knew for a fact that Tito's partisans fought against Germans and Italians because their resistance actions really happened and the combat results were true - regarding the Serbian "Chetniks" British government believed what they heard from former Yugoslav government (and Serbian royal family) that all resided in Britain.

Britain send OSS officers to both groups.


#9
When it was crystal clear that Serbian "Chetniks" were actually using British supplied weapons only against Tito's partisans and that they were actually collaborating with Germans and Italians for the whole time the British aid to them stopped. This happened in 1943.


#10
When Russians advanced towards east later in 1944/45 the Soviet help for Tito's partisans finally happened (the land contact was finally possible).

Please note that at that time Tito's partisans were armed with weapons taken from Germans and Italian occupiers (especially after Italian capitulation in 1943) and with weapons supplied by the British (there were even Spitfires and Hurricanes given)!

Only after WWII ended and after "rigged" elections the communism actually took a grip over country.



Leo "Apollo11"

RE: Possible to model Yugoslavia?

Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2011 5:58 pm
by Cavalry Corp
Thanks for taking time to write this comprehensive reply .

Its quite interesting to say the least, though the politics of that region are always complicated.

RE: Possible to model Yugoslavia?

Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2011 7:19 pm
by Apollo11
Hi all,
ORIGINAL: cavalry

Thanks for taking time to write this comprehensive reply .

Its quite interesting to say the least, though the politics of that region are always complicated.

No problem at all... [:)]

Yes... sad and interesting... lots of bad things happened... but then again same can be said for almost any place on Earth at one or another time in history... we humans are made that way... [;)]


Leo "Apollo11"

RE: Possible to model Yugoslavia?

Posted: Mon Dec 26, 2011 9:35 am
by demyansk
Question,

How come the game is hard coded?  I am a noob on this stuff but a Yugo scenario would have been interesting.

RE: Possible to model Yugoslavia?

Posted: Mon Dec 26, 2011 9:39 am
by Apollo11
Hi all,
ORIGINAL: demjansk

Question,

How come the game is hard coded?  I am a noob on this stuff but a Yugo scenario would have been interesting.

It was design decision because it would make things much more complicated (i.e. proper partisan simulation).

It will be addressed in future Witx iterations! [:)]


Leo "Apollo11"

RE: Possible to model Yugoslavia?

Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 10:51 am
by Farfarer61
The movie "The Bridge on the Neretva" starring Yul Brynner(sp?) gives a hollywood/propaganda view of the partisan war, but it is an easy watch. There is even an Italian officer character who 'joins' the partisans if I recall correctly.

RE: Possible to model Yugoslavia?

Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 1:22 pm
by Dili
The communism was actually downplayed for the most part because the partisan movement wanted big support from whole population - the communists didn't have such big backing at the time at all.

Like Stalin did. The Great Patriotic War was played not in communist terms initially, to get all the peasants and people despised communists in their side.
The only thing that actually related the Tito's partisan movement with communism was red star on front of a military hat - but that was not actually considered as pro-communism thing - it was more the anti-fascism thing (similar to what happened Spain before WWII).

The red star was communist. There is nothing anti-fascist in that, Fascist Italy supplied several ships to the Soviet Union Navy - even after Spanish Civil War - Soviet Battleships were an Italian design UP41 from Ansaldo.Also fascist Italy and was one of the first countries to recognize Soviet Union. Only later due Germany and Nazism, Spanish Civil War, Italy and Soviet Union went different ways. Even then we shouldn't forget Molotov-Ribbentrop Soviet-Nazi pact.