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Aviation Support at a base was capped at 250 in WITP as outlined in Air Supply section of that manual.

This cap was removed in AE and is not mentioned in the manual (except for the AI).
Somehow it has crept back into the code, and was obvious from the large-scale single raid air attacks (300AV supporting 2500 planes at a single base).

Don't expect this condition to always be so.

[:D]

ORIGINAL: michaelm

Aviation Support at a base was capped at 250 in WITP as outlined in Air Supply section of that manual.

This cap was removed in AE and is not mentioned in the manual (except for the AI).
Somehow it has crept back into the code, and was obvious from the large-scale single raid air attacks (300AV supporting 2500 planes at a single base).

Don't expect this condition to always be so.

If you really could remove this "feature", I would be very happy boy! [:)]

What change(s) are you considering? A higher cap? Please keep in mind that the Tinian Airfield at the end of WW2 was called by some the largest in the world but in AE it is restricted to a lvl 7. Changing the cap rules may adversely affect the use of the B-29 in the game.

I am glad you found that Michael. I think you should put the cap back in. The Tinian issue can be resolved with putting a HQ there if I remember correctly. If not, just edit the A/F to be built to a 9.

ORIGINAL: michaelm
Aviation Support at a base was capped at 250 in WITP as outlined in Air Supply section of that manual.

This cap was removed in AE and is not mentioned in the manual (except for the AI).
Somehow it has crept back into the code, and was obvious from the large-scale single raid air attacks (300AV supporting 2500 planes at a single base).

Don't expect this condition to always be so.

I do recall this from my old notes. Um, it sneaks in at two places. The main one comes from a place far, far away, from a time long, long ago. GG's original paradigm let the AI increase AvSup for units having Type=10 (Eng) with suffix 109=(Base Force) to acommodate all airgroups present in a hex with that BF. There was a growth cut-off at 250 AvSup.

Because of this, there was a support cut-off, where once you got to 250 AvSup, nothing more was needed, no matter how many planes you had, because nobody woulda thunk of 2500 planes at a base in the first place.

I would like to see a cut-off of 250 AvSup retained for the AI. That's what it's always been, and I accept that.

I would like to see all support cut-offs removed. If some person wants to put 2500 planes at a base, he better have 2500 AvSup to support them. I do not accept freebies for anyone. This is something that oozed through the cracks and needs to be caulked.

Actually, I kinda like the idea of a hard limit for AvSup no matter what the stinking base size is, but that is another discussion.

aren't there more aircraft (engines) around than total av support? Speaking about mid 44 or so.

ORIGINAL: khyberbill

What change(s) are you considering? A higher cap? Please keep in mind that the Tinian Airfield at the end of WW2 was called by some the largest in the world but in AE it is restricted to a lvl 7. Changing the cap rules may adversely affect the use of the B-29 in the game.

There should not be a cap. It was always intended to be removed.
You will need enough AV at a base to support the planes there.

Looking at Downfall, it currently has 650 AV at Tinian supporting 576 AV Required.
Don't get this confused with the stacking requirement which depend on AF size, HQ, missions, etc.

ORIGINAL: JWE

ORIGINAL: michaelm
Aviation Support at a base was capped at 250 in WITP as outlined in Air Supply section of that manual.

This cap was removed in AE and is not mentioned in the manual (except for the AI).
Somehow it has crept back into the code, and was obvious from the large-scale single raid air attacks (300AV supporting 2500 planes at a single base).

Don't expect this condition to always be so.

I do recall this from my old notes. Um, it sneaks in at two places. The main one comes from a place far, far away, from a time long, long ago. GG's original paradigm let the AI increase AvSup for units having Type=10 (Eng) with suffix 109=(Base Force) to acommodate all airgroups present in a hex with that BF. There was a growth cut-off at 250 AvSup.

Because of this, there was a support cut-off, where once you got to 250 AvSup, nothing more was needed, no matter how many planes you had, because nobody woulda thunk of 2500 planes at a base in the first place.

I would like to see a cut-off of 250 AvSup retained for the AI. That's what it's always been, and I accept that.

I would like to see all support cut-offs removed. If some person wants to put 2500 planes at a base, he better have 2500 AvSup to support them. I do not accept freebies for anyone. This is something that oozed through the cracks and needs to be caulked.

Actually, I kinda like the idea of a hard limit for AvSup no matter what the stinking base size is, but that is another discussion.

The AI will still get is cap as it needs that in several places.

You will need enough AV at a base to support the planes there.

Great.

JWE -

Thank You for clarifying this thread. I misinterpreted Michael's post and had it backwards; but now clearly understand (or at least until I confuse myself again... probably in the not so distant future... <grin>).

I fully concur with your view and statements - the AI gets all the freebie help it can get; the Human Player needs to plan ahead and have the support assets in place before loading up with aircraft - or pay the price.

What an awesome game, and it only gets better...

Mac

ORIGINAL: castor troy

aren't there more aircraft (engines) around than total av support? Speaking about mid 44 or so.

AV required is based on the number of planes in a group, not engines.
Base value is roughly the #ready plus quarter of (#damaged and #maintenance).

Also being under supported does not stop planes from flying, but cuts back on the number that can launch per phase. Also affects the repair and service of the planes at the base during the Supply Phase.

Looking at the Downfall, there are a number of HQ or BF that seem to have TOE upgrades that almost double the AV of those units. If these are done, then the main AF bases look to be able to support all planes at those bases. Trouble is you can't upgrade the TOE as no Command HQ near by.[:D]
I was initially tricked in to thinking that Tinian had ample AV, but the groups were under-strength and when the reserves became active, it pushed the AV over what was present.

Perhaps in real life, the number of support personal was sufficient and our number of squads is not up to par.

ORIGINAL: michaelm

Aviation Support at a base was capped at 250 in WITP as outlined in Air Supply section of that manual.

This cap was removed in AE and is not mentioned in the manual (except for the AI).
Somehow it has crept back into the code, and was obvious from the large-scale single raid air attacks (300AV supporting 2500 planes at a single base).

Don't expect this condition to always be so.

Good news.

While you are at it, could you install the cap on the maximum number of engineer squads that can work on a base in a given turn? IIRC, we intended the cap in development, but it never quite made it past the finish line.

ORIGINAL: Blackhorse

...While you are at it, could you install the cap on the maximum number of engineer squads that can work on a base in a given turn? IIRC, we intended the cap in development, but it never quite made it past the finish line.

What number is the proposal here? It needs to be a reasonably high number for the allies to achieve an appropriate tempo.

EDIT PS: completely agree with the AV support proposal, both the no-cap for the HUM and the cap for the AI.

ORIGINAL: michaelm
Don't expect this condition to always be so.

[&o]
YEAH!!

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

ORIGINAL: Blackhorse

...While you are at it, could you install the cap on the maximum number of engineer squads that can work on a base in a given turn? IIRC, we intended the cap in development, but it never quite made it past the finish line.

What number is the proposal here? It needs to be a reasonably high number for the allies to achieve an appropriate tempo.

EDIT PS: completely agree with the AV support proposal, both the no-cap for the HUM and the cap for the AI.

+1 to what the man represented by the alluringly implied naked lady said.

Love the notion of air support being required without limit (but give the AI whatever it needs to be a good opponent).

Skeptical of the notion of a construction-engineer limit, insofar as it needs to be large and smartly balanced. A whole lotta working guys can work on a base at one time, and as the base gets bigger maybe even more can fit around the perimeter working on expansion.

PS: AV is now used throughout the game displays for "Assault Value" and AS for "Aviation Support".

ORIGINAL: JWE

ORIGINAL: michaelm
Aviation Support at a base was capped at 250 in WITP as outlined in Air Supply section of that manual.

This cap was removed in AE and is not mentioned in the manual (except for the AI).
Somehow it has crept back into the code, and was obvious from the large-scale single raid air attacks (300AV supporting 2500 planes at a single base).

Don't expect this condition to always be so.

I do recall this from my old notes. Um, it sneaks in at two places. The main one comes from a place far, far away, from a time long, long ago. GG's original paradigm let the AI increase AvSup for units having Type=10 (Eng) with suffix 109=(Base Force) to acommodate all airgroups present in a hex with that BF. There was a growth cut-off at 250 AvSup.

Because of this, there was a support cut-off, where once you got to 250 AvSup, nothing more was needed, no matter how many planes you had, because nobody woulda thunk of 2500 planes at a base in the first place.

I would like to see a cut-off of 250 AvSup retained for the AI. That's what it's always been, and I accept that.

I would like to see all support cut-offs removed. If some person wants to put 2500 planes at a base, he better have 2500 AvSup to support them. I do not accept freebies for anyone. This is something that oozed through the cracks and needs to be caulked.

Actually, I kinda like the idea of a hard limit for AvSup no matter what the stinking base size is, but that is another discussion.

Something like a hard limit of AV support equal to the stack limit of the airfield? Sounds good to me. I thought that was the reason that those stack limits were put into place anyway...to prevent the massive 2500 plane raids.

Now then, why the LBA block out the sun raids happen is that you can stack as many carriers into 1 hex as you like and they can put up their en masse cap and massive raids with no penalties. I've seen plenty of examples posted with 600-700 Hellcats on cap. That needs to be fixed too IMHO.

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo
What number is the proposal here? It needs to be a reasonably high number for the allies to achieve an appropriate tempo.

Agreed -- but not so unlimited as to allow Level 9 airfields to be built from scratch in a week or two. It's not really an issue before 1943, when the trickle of Allied engineer units turns into a flow, then a flood in 1944 and a Tsunami in 1945.

Ideally, we would have a sliding scale, with each extra engineer unit providing less added benefit. That's probably not practical. If we used a hard cap, I'd suggest a limit in the 750-800 point range. Each engineer vehicle = 5 points, each squad = 1. The way the game engine values engineer points, that would still allow ports and airfields to be built much faster than IRL, but would somewhat limit the late-war fantasy one-level-per-day that we've seen in some AARs.

If a sliding cap were practical, I'd envision something along the lines of, the first 300 Engineer points = 100% benefit; 301-600 points = 50% benefit, 601-900 points = 25% benefit. 901+ = 10% benefit. With the actual #s subject to playtesting first, of course.

Large US Engineer Units:
Each Naval Construction Regiment (x3 Seabee Bns) has 174 engineer points. They arrive throughout 1943.
In early 1944, Engineer Aviation Brigades (x4 EAB Bns each) with 368 engineer points begin to arrive, one for each Air Force HQ in the Pacific.
Also in 1944 there are four Engineer Construction Brigades (x4 Bns) with 344 engineer points each.
And in 1945, one Combat Engineer Regiment (x4 Bns) arrives per Corps HQ. Each CER has 400 engineer points.