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I have had a few requests for info on my Extended Lvov opening. Well here it is. I am not going to elaborate too much. It took me quite a bit of time to work out so I am reluctant to just hand feed it all.

You will need 2 Pz and 2 Mot from 2nd Pz Army to pull it off plus GD. You don’t need these guys to achieve the normal link up around Minsk and I replace them with 2 of the fixed Mech units from 14th Pz Corp on turn 2. Plus two from 4th Pz Group (You only need 4 out of the 6 Mech units to nail Leningrad). So overall AGS gains 2 Mech Divisions and AGN loses 2 Mech Divs. The extra units bagged in AGS on turn 1 are a big hit on Ivan. It’s worth it.

This move, the AGS Gambit on turn 1, is complex and not without risk. You will need to practice it over and over until you perfect it before attempting in a real game. But I have used it successfully for my past 4 games as German. Yes the Lvov group will get back in to supply but only for one turn. The other pockets will hold if done right.

Enjoy [:)]

Here is a clue to whats going on, not all there but it should help.

Ha! I'd love to see a Lvov opening like that. I'd rip the Axis a new poopchute. Easy to break, a bunch of broken down German mobile regiments to bounce around, and you'd be able to tarbaby/isolate most of PG 1 for about three turns. It is wildly overextended and therefore weakened.

JAMiAM- I respect what you said, but I don't think it would be all that easy.
Perhaps you and Michael should play a special 3 turn game? It would be interesting to see the outcome.

ORIGINAL: AFV

JAMiAM- I respect what you said, but I don't think it would be all that easy.
Perhaps you and Michael should play a special 3 turn game? It would be interesting to see the outcome.

I don't have the time to play the games I already have going. It would be irresponsible for me to take on more.

Also, this strategy of his relies on the First Turn special movement rates being broken. The regiments are supposed to be charged +2 MPs for movement through enemy territory, but for quite some time, it's been screwed up one way (too many MPs charged) or another (not enough). If/when this ever gets properly fixed, Axis players are not going to be able to do this much fanning out with their regiments, due to MP expenditures.

James Sov's would be screwed if he tried to resist it. It can't get broken. Only Lvov guys get back in supply, temporarily. If you like James I will send you a file. See if you can riggle out.

Thanks for taking the time to share this opening.

ORIGINAL: Michael T

James Sov's would be screwed if he tried to resist it. It can't get broken. Only Lvov guys get back in supply, temporarily. If you like James I will send you a file. See if you can riggle out.

Hi Michael,

If you'd like, send it to iamjamiam (at) yahoo (dot) com. I don't have time to do more than just play around with a response to the Lvov pocket though, so please don't expect that we can do a game out of it.

Regards,
James

James, the problem is that it is turn one, the Soviets have almost no mp, and the first turn modifiers will make you totally ineffective - you will just end up throwing away more troops.

Ok I am going to send this file to a few guys who have asked for it. A couple of things to remember.

This was a quick and dirty example just to demonstrate the move, in a real game it would be a little tighter. I did not bother taking out the Soviet airforce so in this example when you try your breakout only fair to switch off air support. I also would normally have added a few more support units to reg's that face counter attack.

Consider that in a real game a Soviet would face some very tough decisions. Like if he decides to try and break out with support from outside and it fails he will lose even more troops next turn. So bear this in mind, the risk associated with a counter attack. To be honest I prefer it when the Soviets try to save the pocketed units. It means more fall in to the trap. So try to think in the terms I have one shot to get this right, not replay an attack over and over till you get a result.

With any move there are variations due to units routing or direction of retreat. This move is not guaranteed. But I rekon done properly has about a 90% of coming off. I have failed in practice sessions but in 5 out of 5 real in game attempts it has succeeded. Ask Marquo, Bobo821, Vorsteher, Sillyflower and Kamil how they found it. It has worked very well for me.

In the end I don't really care if some you guys like it or not. I do and I use it. It's entirely up to you if you want to pursue it. I only put it out there because some guys asked for it. I thought it only fair to make it public rather than just show a select few. I have not seen it appear anywhere else. Its entirely my own variation. Of course that doesn't mean others have done it as well but haven't made it public. None of my opponents have seen it before.

So there you have it. I am going away for a week or so so don't expect much from me in responce.

Happy Easter all

What do you do at Brest Litovest,,, bypass and isolate it ????

Michael T. You're a magician !!!! It took me 4-5 hours but I followed you hints (actually they were pretty clear directions) to a T and it is more than doable. In fact I had a lot of holds and did it comfortably . I did use a lot of air to ground attacks to soften key targets. The key is the regiment 3 hexes from Zhitomir. There are no MP's to spare. Its amazing that often 2 regiment attacks in your plan are as good as the full division in accomplishing this pocket. I could have never figured it out. From my chess background I'll call this the Michael T. variation of the Lvov Pocket. An amazing piece of work.....

Also it will not be broken (other than the big pocket itself.) The only chance I see is on the key regiment 3 hexes from Zhitomir which can get hit by hasty attacks from 3 paratroopers. But I think the German regiment can not be budged.

I spend more time actually testing and analysing than playing. I have a few more tricks up my sleve but they shall remain secret for now. Glad you find the gambit worth pursuing.

You call it a gambit ... I guess it is in a chess sense... and the implication is it can backfire and trip you up (gambit is gambetto (Italian) which means tripping... I looked that up..), so how bad is it when it doesn't work ???... it looks pretty bad !!!

Probably not much risk if done exactly right. But if attempted before some practice and you suffer some bad die rolls then it might get ugly. There is also some indirect risk in that you are stripping 4 and 1/2 div's from AGC. So a weaker AGC means there is potential for it to go bad as well, at least in the 2nd Pz Army. I mean in the sense that the Sov's could re establish contact with the AGC pocket. You don't want that.

Proves my point.
The only way to stop people endlessly practising their turn with perfect knowledge is to begin the 1941 campaign on June 22nd with the Russians having a limited ability to move some of their units on the first turn so that the Germans do not know what they will be facing.
Otherwise the massacre will always be total with no risk to the germans at all on the first turn which is totally unrealistic and undercuts the otherwise splendid nature fo the game after the first turn.

Matthew buttsworth

Free setup for both sides within defined areas would be great. But you need to tie it to some mechanism that curtails the runaway. The game has huge loopholes for both sides.

Yep

It would have to be tied down, especially in the front areas.
the question then would be if the russians have it should the germans then have it, to see if they modify anything according to recon. could become tricky to create if you allowed anything more than a limited Russian June 15 turn.

MB

Hi Michael T,

Nice moves.

Chuckles, some what.
I remember back in the day of SF and WIR how it was it was physical impossible to advance to Minsk in the first week/turn. You IIRC could max end up 1 hex short. Quite a bit of controvercy and outrage about that back then.
Seems to be alot less attention to the fact that in WiTE, u can reach Talinn and be over the upper and lower Dneipr in turn 2/within 6 days.


Ah well, the change of winds in the world of GG wargaming

Rasmus

Well, not quite the Don. The Dnepr.