Matrix Games Forums

O.K., I'm starting the grand campaign game as Japan. I have never played the game and used the economy, always shorter scenarios, always allies, always using historic production rates.
1.) Can you build any unit you want based upon the in game TOE's (devices) based upon availability date, or does each unit have to be defined in the locations tab?
For instance (using a ficticious unit), say I start the game with two "Sushi Chef" battalions, and historically get a second in April '42 and a fourth in January '43. In June '42 I decide I need six additional "Sushi Chef" battalions. If I have the manpower and appropriate weapons and materials can I build them, based upon the device/TOE, or do the individual additional units have to be pre-defined?
2.) Same-same with ships, but with the additional question; if you have to individually define the additional ships, do you also have to define their upgrade path or can you just use the tie to ship class to define the upgrade path?
3.) Why are apparently the same items defined more than once in the device file? And with different parameters? Example: The 5"/38 Mk 22 is contained in the device file at #023 with an accuracy rate of 200 and again at 1624 as the 5"/38 Mk12 with an accuracy of 62. Mk12 is the actual 5"/38 gun, Mk 22 is the mounting on the Porter class DD using the Mk12 gun and is correctly shown as 1624 in the ship classes file. The same with IJN Infantry squads, they appear in several places 264-265-266 then again at 707-709-710. You see the same with USMC and US Army squads and these are just the ones I've checked. I get the groups of three are to simulate TOE/and weapons changes over the course of the war, but why the first sets? The other thing I see is that the lower numbered sets have no checked under build and the latter have yes checked. Why the difference? A unit you can't build, is that one that appears on the map at game start? If so why would it have different parameters than a unit you build?

I've got others, and I'm sure I'll come up with more, but this is a start. Thanks in advance for the help! These things are not fully explained in the game manual or editor manual.

ORIGINAL: cplprice

O.K., I'm starting the grand campaign game as Japan. I have never played the game and used the economy, always shorter scenarios, always allies, always using historic production rates.
1.) Can you build any unit you want based upon the in game TOE's (devices) based upon availability date, or does each unit have to be defined in the locations tab?
For instance (using a ficticious unit), say I start the game with two "Sushi Chef" battalions, and historically get a second in April '42 and a fourth in January '43. In June '42 I decide I need six additional "Sushi Chef" battalions. If I have the manpower and appropriate weapons and materials can I build them, based upon the device/TOE, or do the individual additional units have to be pre-defined?

Pre-defined and you cannot accelerate them.

2.) Same-same with ships, but with the additional question; if you have to individually define the additional ships, do you also have to define their upgrade path or can you just use the tie to ship class to define the upgrade path?

Individually defined but can be tied to class...and you can't add extras in game

3.) Why are apparently the same items defined more than once in the device file? And with different parameters? Example: The 5"/38 Mk 22 is contained in the device file at #023 with an accuracy rate of 200 and again at 1624 as the 5"/38 Mk12 with an accuracy of 62. Mk12 is the actual 5"/38 gun, Mk 22 is the mounting on the Porter class DD using the Mk12 gun and is correctly shown as 1624 in the ship classes file.

Some of the lower device numbers in stock are legacy holdovers from vanila witp and are not actually used in game.

The same with IJN Infantry squads, they appear in several places 264-265-266 then again at 707-709-710. You see the same with USMC and US Army squads and these are just the ones I've checked. I get the groups of three are to simulate TOE/and weapons changes over the course of the war, but why the first sets?

See above reference legacy..

The other thing I see is that the lower numbered sets have no checked under build and the latter have yes checked. Why the difference? A unit you can't build, is that one that appears on the map at game start? If so why would it have different parameters than a unit you build?

See above...

I've got others, and I'm sure I'll come up with more, but this is a start. Thanks in advance for the help! These things are not fully explained in the game manual or editor manual.

Thank you for your quick and informative response!

In the case of ships, if I've understood the threads I've been reading. You can get around this by defining additional ships you think you might need, assign them the earliest arrival date the class had historically. They will all appear on this date and you can turn their production off and turn them on when you decide you need them to start construction. A hypothetical example: There is an escort ship the first of a class of 10, the first of which was laid down in June '42. I define 25 more of the escort vessels showing June '42 as their arrival date. When they appear I turn off their production. I manage not to get the Kido Butai sunk and decide I'd rather build additional escorts and forego additional CV's. When the CV Amagi is laid down/arrives in October '42, I turn her off and turn on a comparable displacements worth of the escorts. Am I understanding this correctly?

If I am understanding correctly, as for LCU's, is their a similar work around?

You do not build LCU's.

LCU's are defined to arrive on Date X in the editor. When Date X arrives so does the LCU. The Japanese player build vehicles and armament points...when an LCU arrives those points are expended to fill the unit with the devices in its TO&E.

As a far as Ships...I do not dwell there much...but in your scenario there is no requirement that you can only build so many tons of displacement at a time...

If you wanted to define 1000 ships to arrive in june 42 you can... the only limitation is the HI cost of the added ships....Read the manual p.236 about ship production.

Thank you again for the good intell.

Your comment:

If you wanted to define 1000 ships to arrive in june 42 you can... the only limitation is the HI cost of the added ships....Read the manual p.236 about ship production.

Please bear with me I'm trying to get my head around the mechanics. This does raise additional questions, I have read the manual and just re-read the portion you mentioned. From the manual

10 * Ship Durability require Naval or Merchant shipyard points equal to their durability to remove 1 delay (each day).

The shipyard points of the individual shipyards do appear to be related to the tonnage capacity they had IRL. It was my understanding that the durability rating is directly factored from displacement and armor, (I don't remember which of the manuals or threads here where I got the impression). I probably mis-stated what I was wondering, anyway the CV Shokaku has a durability rating of 90, the Shimakaze DD a durability of 12. Say I was building a Shokaku in a 100 Naval Shipyard, if the ship had 900 days or less to build (10*90) I'd need to expend 90 shipyard points to decrease the arrival by one day. Is this correct? If it is then I could turn the Shokaku class CV off when it arrives and build 8 x Shimakazes, 120 days (10*12) in it's place and would expend 96 shipyard points to decrease the arrival date by one. Is this correct?
Which brings the next question. If the ship arrives and you turn off it's production do you use HI points. The way I understood it you spend 3 HI points daily for the shipyard to produce shipyard points, or as in my previous example a 100 shipyard would cost me 300 HI points daily unless I turn it off, correct? Is there an additional HI cost for a ship? So if I had all ships of a particular class appear on the date the lead ship of the class was laid down, turned off all but the ones I chose to build and have the shipyard points to produce, I should have accuracy as to production capabilities (limited by shipyard size/points and HI availability. I can't build them before the lead ship appeard historically, and by turning on and off I can chose which ones to build. Am I missing a factor and does this sound correct given the game mechanics?

Can the same be done with LCU's? Can you have them arrive at one time, set them to not fill to TOE upon arrival (kind of cadred) and allow the player to fill out/stand them up when he has the need, manpower and armaments?

Do any of the mod's such as DaBabes allow for greater economic/production control?

[&o] I really, really do appreciate your help! I don't want to spend the time and get months into the game and find out I should have done something differently.

ORIGINAL: cplprice

Thank you again for the good intell.

Your comment:

If you wanted to define 1000 ships to arrive in june 42 you can... the only limitation is the HI cost of the added ships....Read the manual p.236 about ship production.

Please bear with me I'm trying to get my head around the mechanics. This does raise additional questions, I have read the manual and just re-read the portion you mentioned.
From the manual

10 * Ship Durability require Naval or Merchant shipyard points equal to their durability to remove 1 delay (each day).

The shipyard points of the individual shipyards do appear to be related to the tonnage capacity they had IRL. It was my understanding that the durability rating is directly factored from displacement and armor, (I don't remember which of the manuals or threads here where I got the impression). I probably mis-stated what I was wondering, anyway the CV Shokaku has a durability rating of 90, the Shimakaze DD a durability of 12. Say I was building a Shokaku in a 100 Naval Shipyard, if the ship had 900 days or less to build (10*90) I'd need to expend 90 shipyard points to decrease the arrival by one day. Is this correct? If it is then I could turn the Shokaku class CV off when it arrives and build 8 x Shimakazes, 120 days (10*12) in it's place and would expend 96 shipyard points to decrease the arrival date by one. Is this correct?

Yes and No...ships are not in individual shipyards. They are in a pool. Your shipyards genrate points that also go into a pool. A ship with a delay of less than 10*Durabaility...will burn durability number of points from the pool to reduce its delay by 1.

Which brings the next question. If the ship arrives and you turn off it's production do you use HI points. The way I understood it you spend 3 HI points daily for the shipyard to produce shipyard points, or as in my previous example a 100 shipyard would cost me 300 HI points daily unless I turn it off, correct? Is there an additional HI cost for a ship? So if I had all ships of a particular class appear on the date the lead ship of the class was laid down, turned off all but the ones I chose to build and have the shipyard points to produce, I should have accuracy as to production capabilities (limited by shipyard size/points and HI availability. I can't build them before the lead ship appeard historically, and by turning on and off I can chose which ones to build. Am I missing a factor and does this sound correct given the game mechanics?

If you turn the ship off you do not use naval or merchant points...which are added to the pool through the use of HI points ...which in turn means you have more of those points for other ships.

Can the same be done with LCU's? Can you have them arrive at one time, set them to not fill to TOE upon arrival (kind of cadred) and allow the player to fill out/stand them up when he has the need, manpower and armaments?

No.

Do any of the mod's such as DaBabes allow for greater economic/production control?

Not really...you can either turn Light or heavy industry on or off...which probably should not be able to do anyway but that is another matter...and you can turn aircraft factories on or off and you can start stop or accelerate ships...and some of the other stuff...but other than ships you really cannot micro-micro-manage (double micro intentional) the building of land units or aircraft

[&o] I really, really do appreciate your help! I don't want to spend the time and get months into the game and find out I should have done something differently.

Yes and No...ships are not in individual shipyards. They are in a pool. Your shipyards generate points that also go into a pool. A ship with a delay of less than 10*Durabaility...will burn durability number of points from the pool to reduce its delay by 1.

Ah, I see said the blind man. So the shipyard points are global, yes? Still I am limited to the 10*durability ship points, so the total tonnage/durability I can progress at one time is still limited by my total global ship points. Is this correct? If so is it the first X number of durability points that the shipyard points will cover based upon the ships position in the building que?

OK back back to the LCU question. I understand my previous thought would not work so let me ask you if it would work if I attacked the problem from a different tack. Could I build the units with a reduced TOE say a division containing just a squad. If I defined an actual divisional TOE as what the unit upgrades to and set the availability date for the upgrade at start. Then I'd have squad sized units, using squad sized supplies, requiring squad sized support until I upgrade them to the divisional TOE at which time the rebuild would incur the costs in manpower, vehicles and armament. Do you think this might work?

I really do appreciate your help. I see you're located in Knoxville. I'm from just south of Chattanooga. If you're ever down this way I owe you a beer or three

ORIGINAL: cplprice

Yes and No...ships are not in individual shipyards. They are in a pool. Your shipyards generate points that also go into a pool. A ship with a delay of less than 10*Durabaility...will burn durability number of points from the pool to reduce its delay by 1.

Ah, I see said the blind man. So the shipyard points are global, yes? Still I am limited to the 10*durability ship points, so the total tonnage/durability I can progress at one time is still limited by my total global ship points. Is this correct?

[/quote]

Correct

If so is it the first X number of durability points that the shipyard points will cover based upon the ships position in the building que?

Not sure...but probably has to do with Ship Number...or class...or most expensive first.

OK back back to the LCU question. I understand my previous thought would not work so let me ask you if it would work if I attacked the problem from a different tack. Could I build the units with a reduced TOE say a division containing just a squad. If I defined an actual divisional TOE as what the unit upgrades to and set the availability date for the upgrade at start. Then I'd have squad sized units, using squad sized supplies, requiring squad sized support until I upgrade them to the divisional TOE at which time the rebuild would incur the costs in manpower, vehicles and armament. Do you think this might work?

Probably not the way you want...but you can test it. My thinking is you are expecting the unit to be completely filled out upon upgrade to the new TO&E...I think it would be a tad slower than that.

I really do appreciate your help. I see you're located in Knoxville. I'm from just south of Chattanooga. If you're ever down this way I owe you a beer or three

NP.

New question: When a unit is re-organized are unused devices returned to the device pool? I know this supposedly happens with aircraft, i.e upgrade a 24 plane squadron flying A6M2's and upgrade to A6M3's, pool of A6M3's reduced by 24 and pool of A6M2's increased by 24. The reason for my question is say a division has 12 Type 95 tanks and it's upgraded to a divisional TOE without tanks, do the 12 Type 95's get returned to the pool for re-issue or are they lost? Or a division with M1 47mm guns upgrades to a unit using 75mm Type 5 guns in their place are the 47mm's returned to the pool? I would assume they are returned to the pool but would like to verify.

ORIGINAL: cplprice

New question: When a unit is re-organized are unused devices returned to the device pool? I know this supposedly happens with aircraft, i.e upgrade a 24 plane squadron flying A6M2's and upgrade to A6M3's, pool of A6M3's reduced by 24 and pool of A6M2's increased by 24. The reason for my question is say a division has 12 Type 95 tanks and it's upgraded to a divisional TOE without tanks, do the 12 Type 95's get returned to the pool for re-issue or are they lost? Or a division with M1 47mm guns upgrades to a unit using 75mm Type 5 guns in their place are the 47mm's returned to the pool? I would assume they are returned to the pool but would like to verify.

Yes they go back into the pools. See s.16.4.1 of the manual.

For the future I would recommend you raise this sort of questions on the main AE forum. Only a few people visit the modders sub forum whereas just about everyone reads the main forum. By sheer weight of numbers the odds are far better that you will get a timely reply on the main forum. Plus it helps other newbies who search the forum for answers.

Alfred

Aye, Aye sir! I understand and will comply. Thanks for the answer also!
The reason for my placing it here is because I am modding a game prior to playing the main campaign game as Japan. I also have never used Japan's economy. One thing I'd like to do is remove the tanks intrinsic to certain infantry unit TOE's and group them in independent battalions for assignment where needed. I have changed the upgrade to TOE to reflect this but then worried that I would have to go back and re-manufacture devices/tanks to form the independent tank battalions.