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Training Groups
Posted: Sat May 12, 2012 1:09 pm
by treespider
Now that I have a nice little spreadsheet detailing Japanese aircraft production I'm thinking of actually making the Japanese build all of those Willows....for use in Training Groups...and cutting the monthly allotment of pilots.
However I need to know the ins and outs of the Pilot Pools and Training Groups beyond my basic understanding.
Anyone care to share some knowledge...
RE: Training Groups
Posted: Sat May 12, 2012 2:07 pm
by Commander Stormwolf
1)I would say the current mechanics can be improved, not with biplanes but with more slots for stage 2 training
2)if you put 0-5 exp untrained pilots into biplanes you will just have lots of OPS losses and lots of dead recruits
3)(it is like a new person without an instructor)
this is what pilot training looks like
stage 1 training is basic training in biplanes
i) you learn navigation, take-offs and landing
ii) you would be introduced to the various types of flying (mostly in the classroom)
iii) then there would be a suitability evaluation, trainees would be selected based on character traits
iv) aggressive ones to fighters and attack, patient ones to patrol and transport
when a japanese fighter pilot is done with basic stage 1 training, most of his hours are in a basic trainer (like a Tombo biplane)
with a few in a secondary trainer (like a Ki-10 perry biplane fighter) back at the flight school
after stage 1 ' 35 exp, 30 air skill, 25 def, 10 or less of evertything else --> that is the pilots you get into the pool
stage 2 training is operational traning
i) pilot is assigned to a training unit in japan on Ki-27 nates
ii) here you learn ACM and practice dogfights
iii) once you can fly your fighter, you learn interceptions and escorting
after stage2 ' 50 exp, 60 air skill, 55 def, 15 or less of everythinge else
--> now he gets assigned to a Ki-43 unit
what I suggest ~ have more slots available for secondary training
remember the japanese built lots of Ki-27 Nates throughout the war (cheap stage 2 trainer)
RE: Training Groups
Posted: Sat May 12, 2012 2:11 pm
by n01487477
ORIGINAL: treespider
Now that I have a nice little spreadsheet detailing Japanese aircraft production I'm thinking of actually making the Japanese build all of those Willows....for use in Training Groups...and cutting the monthly allotment of pilots.
However I need to know the ins and outs of the Pilot Pools and Training Groups beyond my basic understanding.
Anyone care to share some knowledge...
Actually, this was one of the things I was going to email you about this weekend. Take out all the group planes on delayed groups.
What exactly do you want to know about Pilot Pools and Training Groups? I don't want to go over old ground...
Cutting the monthly allotment is actually good economically for Japan, 5 HI per pilot training / mth saved. If you do this you should reduce the start experience level and also HI factories too. I believe that MichealM after some prodding allowed players to keep drawing lower exp. pilots after the pools were empty (or am I thinking this was a request and not implemented)
Another way to limit the training might be to make these groups smaller. Still, players will take other regular groups out of combat to achieve the results they desire.
... Anyway, I'll try to get that correspondence done tomorrow.
Cheers
RE: Training Groups
Posted: Sat May 12, 2012 2:12 pm
by Commander Stormwolf
this is an example of a stage 2 training unit in japan (in my mod)
player needs the option to put those 35 exp trainees into Nates, with lots of empty TO&E slots
that would make training a lot easier..
(and remember, in a mod with manual stage 1 training those biplanes would cost 36 HI points each.. the same as a Ki-84 Frank [8|])
RE: Training Groups
Posted: Sat May 12, 2012 3:08 pm
by treespider
ORIGINAL: n01487477
ORIGINAL: treespider
Now that I have a nice little spreadsheet detailing Japanese aircraft production I'm thinking of actually making the Japanese build all of those Willows....for use in Training Groups...and cutting the monthly allotment of pilots.
However I need to know the ins and outs of the Pilot Pools and Training Groups beyond my basic understanding.
Anyone care to share some knowledge...
Actually, this was one of the things I was going to email you about this weekend. Take out all the group planes on delayed groups.
What exactly do you want to know about Pilot Pools and Training Groups? I don't want to go over old ground...
Cutting the monthly allotment is actually good economically for Japan, 5 HI per pilot training / mth saved. If you do this you should reduce the start experience level and also HI factories too. I believe that MichealM after some prodding allowed players to keep drawing lower exp. pilots after the pools were empty (or am I thinking this was a request and not implemented)
Another way to limit the training might be to make these groups smaller. Still, players will take other regular groups out of combat to achieve the results they desire.
... Anyway, I'll try to get that correspondence done tomorrow.
Cheers
Well I was hoping players could draw pilots from "empty" pools that would have next to zero exp. and use the new on-map training groups to actually train them up.
The economic "savings" from reduced pilot pools are irrelevant for my purposes because the Japanese will have an entirely different economy and HI baseline when compared to Stock or DBB.
RE: Training Groups
Posted: Sat May 12, 2012 3:27 pm
by JWE
Possibly, yes. If you would be so kind as to forward Damian's stuff, I'll try and put our thoughts together in a form that would be useful to both of you.
[ed] You should rid yourself of that idiot stormjerk character. His interjections are annoying and irrelevant. He has been informed that if he messes with a developer thread, his login privileges will be revoked. You might wish to inform him that you are considered a developer and that he should go back to the main forum where he belongs.
Ciao. J
RE: Training Groups
Posted: Sat May 12, 2012 5:03 pm
by Commander Stormwolf
and in the main I am asked to post in Scenario Design..
let's just do our best to improve the game..
RE: Training Groups
Posted: Sun May 13, 2012 1:38 pm
by Shark7
ORIGINAL: treespider
Now that I have a nice little spreadsheet detailing Japanese aircraft production I'm thinking of actually making the Japanese build all of those Willows....for use in Training Groups...and cutting the monthly allotment of pilots.
However I need to know the ins and outs of the Pilot Pools and Training Groups beyond my basic understanding.
Anyone care to share some knowledge...
I've been using it Treespider, there are a couple of things that you should consider:
1. With all the historical training groups I could find, I am actually having no trouble keeping 50 XP pilots in the pool. There were a lot of training groups present in the HI, China and Korea/Manchuria. And keep in mind I doubt I have a complete list of the actual flying schools...
2. A training group of 48 planes will train 144 pilots at a time, and quite effectively...a group fo 24 trains 72, etc...it seems to be a ratio of 3 pilots per 1 plane.
3. It is a TON of micromanagement. The good news is that once pilots hit 50 XP, active groups will draw from the training groups to fill their needs, but you need to constantly go back and refill any pilots taken or the group can lose all its trainees and effectively do nothing.
4. You can transfer instructors in if you have the appropriate type in the TRACOM. It helps
5. From what I can tell an high Inspiration rating is most important to training groups.
Now one thing I would do is leave the pools in place (even at reduced numbers) but lower the starting skills. I've been playing this way for a while now and even with pilots of XP <10 I've not seen overly high OPs losses in the training squads. But you'd better micromanage your front line squads intensely because pulling in a few of those <10 pilots in there will give you nothing but horrendous losses both combat and OPs. Very important that you set your line squads to pull in pilots only above a desired skill level (at least 50+).
Anyway, that has been my experience with it.
RE: Training Groups
Posted: Sun May 13, 2012 7:29 pm
by treespider
ORIGINAL: Shark7
ORIGINAL: treespider
Now that I have a nice little spreadsheet detailing Japanese aircraft production I'm thinking of actually making the Japanese build all of those Willows....for use in Training Groups...and cutting the monthly allotment of pilots.
However I need to know the ins and outs of the Pilot Pools and Training Groups beyond my basic understanding.
Anyone care to share some knowledge...
I've been using it Treespider, there are a couple of things that you should consider:
1. With all the historical training groups I could find, I am actually having no trouble keeping 50 XP pilots in the pool. There were a lot of training groups present in the HI, China and Korea/Manchuria. And keep in mind I doubt I have a complete list of the actual flying schools...
2. A training group of 48 planes will train 144 pilots at a time, and quite effectively...a group fo 24 trains 72, etc...it seems to be a ratio of 3 pilots per 1 plane.
3. It is a TON of micromanagement. The good news is that once pilots hit 50 XP, active groups will draw from the training groups to fill their needs, but you need to constantly go back and refill any pilots taken or the group can lose all its trainees and effectively do nothing.
4. You can transfer instructors in if you have the appropriate type in the TRACOM. It helps
5. From what I can tell an high Inspiration rating is most important to training groups.
Now one thing I would do is leave the pools in place (even at reduced numbers) but lower the starting skills. I've been playing this way for a while now and even with pilots of XP <10 I've not seen overly high OPs losses in the training squads. But you'd better micromanage your front line squads intensely because pulling in a few of those <10 pilots in there will give you nothing but horrendous losses both combat and OPs. Very important that you set your line squads to pull in pilots only above a desired skill level (at least 50+).
Anyway, that has been my experience with it.
Thanks for the feedback I'll send you a PM when i collect my thoughts.
RE: Training Groups
Posted: Sun May 13, 2012 7:29 pm
by treespider
If I had $80...
RE: Training Groups
Posted: Mon May 14, 2012 1:03 am
by PaxMondo
ORIGINAL: Shark7
3. It is a TON of micromanagement. The good news is that once pilots hit 50 XP, active groups will draw from the training groups to fill their needs, but you need to constantly go back and refill any pilots taken or the group can lose all its trainees and effectively do nothing.
Talk about a nugget. THANKS!!! [&o][&o][&o]
I never knew that they had this functionality. Great News. Wow. The depth of the model always impresses me. Kudo's again to the dev's.
RE: Training Groups
Posted: Mon May 14, 2012 1:46 am
by Commander Stormwolf
get that book
japanese army training was less thorough but they put a lot of people through the system 1937-1941
and they had a pretty good pool that turned mediocre fighters like Ki-43 oscars and allowed them to effectively fight
the RAF over burma
japanese navy had a small pool of elites, and once those were gone - a large reservoir of rookies that got torn apart
RE: Training Groups
Posted: Mon May 14, 2012 11:59 am
by mike scholl 1
ORIGINAL: PaxMondo
ORIGINAL: Shark7
3. It is a TON of micromanagement. The good news is that once pilots hit 50 XP, active groups will draw from the training groups to fill their needs, but you need to constantly go back and refill any pilots taken or the group can lose all its trainees and effectively do nothing.
I'm still trying to imagine what the designers were drinking when they decided "this would be fun, let's inflict it on everyone!". For the Japanese, there is no other option..., they just didn't have the infastructure or the doctrine to avoid having to finish "schooling" their pilots even when they were assigned to active units. But this wasn't the case with the Allies, who had full programs of Basic, Intermediate, and Advanced Flight Schools in addition to "In-Type Training" when pilots and aircrew were ready for assignment. For the Allied player it's just a totally unjustified pain in the posterior....
RE: Training Groups
Posted: Mon May 14, 2012 7:34 pm
by oldman45
ORIGINAL: mike scholl 1
ORIGINAL: PaxMondo
ORIGINAL: Shark7
3. It is a TON of micromanagement. The good news is that once pilots hit 50 XP, active groups will draw from the training groups to fill their needs, but you need to constantly go back and refill any pilots taken or the group can lose all its trainees and effectively do nothing.
I'm still trying to imagine what the designers were drinking when they decided "this would be fun, let's inflict it on everyone!". For the Japanese, there is no other option..., they just didn't have the infastructure or the doctrine to avoid having to finish "schooling" their pilots even when they were assigned to active units. But this wasn't the case with the Allies, who had full programs of Basic, Intermediate, and Advanced Flight Schools in addition to "In-Type Training" when pilots and aircrew were ready for assignment. For the Allied player it's just a totally unjustified pain in the posterior....
You said what I have been thinking for a long time. [:)]
RE: Training Groups
Posted: Mon May 14, 2012 7:38 pm
by Commander Stormwolf
allied player needs something to do while he hides his carriers for the first 12 months [;)]
RE: Training Groups
Posted: Tue May 15, 2012 1:20 am
by mike scholl 1
ORIGINAL: Commander Stormwolf
allied player needs something to do while he hides his carriers for the first 12 months [;)]
Actually he has plenty to do..., and maybe he wouldn't need to "hide his carriers" if his time wasn't being occupied with a bunch of ahistoric training nonsense! [8|]
RE: Training Groups
Posted: Tue May 15, 2012 1:50 am
by Commander Stormwolf
AE training = a lot better than WITP vanilla
.. anything is better than WITP vanilla empty base ground attack training to 90 exp [:)]
I would like more empty slots though for training.. so you don't have to use front line units to do it
(like how it was in the AE beta)
RE: Training Groups
Posted: Wed May 16, 2012 6:41 am
by CaptBeefheart
You guys are actually adding to pilot training complexity? Holy carruthers. I've seen some masochists in my time, but... [;)]
Cheers,
CC
RE: Training Groups
Posted: Wed May 16, 2012 9:04 am
by treespider
ORIGINAL: Commander Cody
You guys are actually adding to pilot training complexity? Holy carruthers. I've seen some masochists in my time, but... [;)]
Cheers,
CC
Not really sure how it would be any more complex than it already is ...and IMO its really not all that complex.[;)] You take an air unit you set it to train and viola you train your pilot.[:)]
Plus my mod is not intended for the casual player...[:-]
RE: Training Groups
Posted: Thu May 17, 2012 11:27 am
by Shark7
ORIGINAL: treespider
ORIGINAL: Commander Cody
You guys are actually adding to pilot training complexity? Holy carruthers. I've seen some masochists in my time, but... [;)]
Cheers,
CC
Not really sure how it would be any more complex than it already is ...and IMO its really not all that complex.[;)] You take an air unit you set it to train and viola you train your pilot.[:)]
Plus my mod is not intended for the casual player...[:-]
It isn't any more complex than it is in stock. I can say this as I've been using it in a mod. The only added part is having a few more groups that you have to monitor...since JFBs already have to do what this is doing anyway (if you actually want to compete end game) we really won't notice it.
For the AFBs, it would be a dose of what their JFB opponents go through every turn.