Matrix Games Forums

Posted: **Mon Aug 19, 2002 12:19 am**

I understand the manual states that airbases can operate up to 50x of their size aircraft without penalty, but I have many bases where this does not appear to be true. Only a small fraction of the planes available are attacking which leads me to believe I am running into some kind of a size limitation.

If medium bombers and heavy bombers count for more planes when calculating capacity, this would explain my perceived problem. Does anyone have any thoughts on this subject?

Thanks!

Posted: **Mon Aug 19, 2002 2:05 am**

Originally posted by IndyShark
I understand the manual states that airbases can operate up to 50x of their size aircraft without penalty, but I have many bases where this does not appear to be true. Only a small fraction of the planes available are attacking which leads me to believe I am running into some kind of a size limitation.

If medium bombers and heavy bombers count for more planes when calculating capacity, this would explain my perceived problem. Does anyone have any thoughts on this subject?

Thanks!

The manual is accurate, but a lot of things go into how many aircraft at your base will actually carry out missions. Do you have sufficient air operations support engineers? What is your supply situation? What is the weather forecast? What are the morale and fatigue levels of your squadrons and of your individual pilots? What percentage of squadron aircraft are assigned to perform the particular mission at hand? Are you running recon missions (for land attacks) over your intended target? How much naval search (for attacks against ships) are you conducting? What are the characteristics of your squadron leaders?

All of these things, and many more that I cannot name right off the top of my head, have an effect. It's enough to make you dizzy, to be sure. All I have ever been able to do is make supply and support provisions, put the planes in place, assign missions, and see how I do, while monitoring my squadrons for deterioration in equipment, morale, and fatigue that dictate standing them down (or even rotating them out) until they recover.

This is one of the most complex areas of UV, and there is very little about it that is intuitive to the player. A nice little "player guide" for the benefit of epsilon-minus semi-morons like me out here would be terrific ... if anyone is so inclined ... hint hint ... .

(bonus points to all you literary aficionados out there who can identify where the phrase "epsilon-minus semi-moron" comes from - I'll give you a hint: it has nothing to do with George W. Bush's intellectual capacity)

Posted: **Mon Aug 19, 2002 2:23 am**

just to be clear, I have plenty of supply, plenty of aviation support and the base and airfield are not damaged. The units are well rested, have good morale and almost every plane is ready.

I can't figure out why these squadrons are not flying.

Posted: **Mon Aug 19, 2002 4:19 am**

If someone does figure it all out, what a brave new world that will be!

Posted: **Mon Aug 19, 2002 5:14 am**

Originally posted by CynicAl
If someone does figure it all out, what a brave new world that will be!

AL! You're my HERO, man! I didn't think anybody remembered Huxley anymore, let alone any of the details of the only memorable novel out of so many forgettable ones.

Here, let me decant you a cold one (and set you up with Lenina Crowne, even if she is just a little too pneumatic).

Orgy porgy!

Posted: **Mon Aug 19, 2002 5:19 am**

Originally posted by IndyShark
just to be clear, I have plenty of supply, plenty of aviation support and the base and airfield are not damaged. The units are well rested, have good morale and almost every plane is ready.

I can't figure out why these squadrons are not flying.

Then I'm beat, pal, and will be just as interested as you are in somebody explaining. Come to think of it, I guess have seen several times when I have multiple squadrons of B-17s at a base and want to use them to smash up something, but only pitifully few numbers ever show up for the airstrike, and then they disappear completely for days on end.

Someone wiser than I, please?

Posted: **Mon Aug 19, 2002 7:08 am**

There are a bunch of check that a unit has to pass before it goes on a mission. Each failed check reduces the number of planes flying by 25% (I am not sure how exactly the 25% is calculated if you fail multiple check). It is really easy to fail 3 checks meaning roughly 1/4 of the ready planes will fly.

These check include morale, supply, having too many planes on an airbase, the toughness of the mission. The only positive thing that helps is having a Air Force Headquarter in the same or near by hexs.

Posted: **Mon Aug 19, 2002 1:40 pm**

Alan Arkin is assigned to quite a few squadrons, I think.

Posted: **Tue Aug 20, 2002 6:39 am**

Taken straight from page 89 of the manual:

"11.6 Morale and Air Missions

Every air group with a morale under 50 that is about to fly an Offensive or Escort mission must pass a morale test in order to fly. The lower the morale, the greater the chance the group will fail the test and not fly that particular air phase. Also, air units flying a Naval Search, ASW Patrol, or CAP mission must pass two morale checks in order to fly all available planes on the mission. For each test failed, the number of planes flying will be reduced by 25%.

Before Level Bombers fly an Offensive mission, they must pass 3 tests in order to fly all of their ready aircraft.

1. an experience test
2. a leadership test
3. a morale test in order to fly all of their planes

For each test failed the number of bombers that fly the mission will be reduced by 25%.

11.7 Air HQs

Air HQ's will help air operations within their operational radius. Level bombers not located within an air HQ's command radius will have their number of planes flying reduced by 25% for Offensive missions. All other air strike missions by units outside an air HQ's command radius will have the flying planes reduced by 10%. The command radius for most air HQ's is six hexes. However, Japanese air division HQs have a command radius of three hexes. Japanese air brigade HQs have a command radius of one hex."

So, even with max morale and best fatigue you can have your mission aircraft reduced by as much as a quarter just because there's no air HQ within command radius. With bombers, the sheer number of tests they have to take almost guarantees that not all of them will be going out on that particular run. Very interesting.

Posted: **Tue Aug 20, 2002 8:23 am**

That's helpful, Jake, anhd I have read the manual, but I think that Indy's problem, which I have noted to some degree, as well, is that, often, almost NOBODY shows up for game day, even with AFHQs (of any of the types mentioned) present or close by. It looks more like a disqualification than a reduction in strength.

Maybe there is a mathematical cumulation of negatives in the formulae that creates this phenomenon. Hell, I don't know, I'm just speculating, but it does seem odd when you have five B-17 squadrons (12, 12, 12, 10, and 8 planes), full strength, experience 65+, fatigue under 10, morale 96+, assigned to attack an enemy base on a day when the weather forecast is "clear" show up with two groups of three aircraft.

Posted: **Tue Aug 20, 2002 11:42 am**

Hi,

My feeling is that there is a bug in this area but there are so many factors involved so it's difficult to say for sure. My understanding has always been that in case there are reductions it would affect each and every squadron but in my case it's more like one squadron out of 5 flying at all.
I've experienced the same thing several times. Both with B-17s and B-25s.
AFHQ in hex, supply OK, escorts available and so on and after several days only one unit has been on missions. The others have refused to fly for so long that fatigue is 0.
Once I managed to break the deadlock by reissuing the orders to bomb for each squadron but I tried that later again and I couldn't see that it made any difference.

/BPRE

Posted: **Tue Aug 20, 2002 7:33 pm**

It seems to me that I remember that a base must have double its supply needs to fly all level bombers. If only 1x supply needs you fly -25%. Along with no HQ in the area, you would be down another 25%. That means .75x.75% planes or about 55% even when you think everything is ok with your units. Next comes a leadership test, which poor leaders can fail and reduce you by another 25% (down to 42%, or 5 planes for a full unit of 12). I think Gary's math is cumulative like this, but there is a chance he subtracts 25% each time which would have you down to 100-75 or 25% or just 3 planes in a full group). Next time, check out these factors and see if this could be what is keeping you from flying.

Joel

Posted: **Wed Aug 21, 2002 4:55 am**

Thanks, I will try that and see. I did not have a moral problem and I had plenty of supply. I could not understand why SBD and TBF's would not attack when they were in range.

Oh well.

Posted: **Wed Aug 21, 2002 2:52 pm**

Two things I did not see while scanning this thread.

First, a base has to be a certain size to fly some missions. Only fighter groups can operate from a size one base and LB need a size 4.

Second, we were told during testing that you can efficiently operate 50 planes for every 1 point base size. If you exceed this limit, there are penalties that are applied.

So, for efficient LB operations you should have 200 aircraft on a size 4 base with 200 aviation support and double the needed supplies.

At least this is the way I understand it.

Rick

Posted: **Fri Aug 23, 2002 12:11 am**

OK,

I decided to go through some saved files to get the actual figures. This is how it looked like. I'm sorry that it is a very long post.

Scenario 5. Started the scenario in 1.11 but the turns I describe below were executed in 1.20. When I say 'Start turn' it means that the save file has been saved immediately after previous combat resolution.
I took Lae 8/3/43 (turn 50) and after that I shifted the bombing targets for Port Moresby based B-25s to Nadzab and later Salamaua. Here's the data turn by turn for the squadrons involved. Except for the B-25s I have the following units based in PM:
1 F-5A Lightning 8 A/C
2 P-38G Lightning 24+24 A/C 1 is used as Escort and the other one LRCAP
2 B-24D Liberator 10+10 A/C Other target or Training
5 B-17E Fortress 11+9+9+9+10 Other targets or Training
3 C-47 Dakota 14+14+16 Supply transport or Training

Airfield size is 9. 5th Air Force with (1) 89 support on site.

Start turn 51 Port Moresby Weather Forecast: Rain

Supply 37121
Supply Req. 12856
Av. Support 232
Av. Sup Req. 232

Code: Select all

             AC     AC      AC     Ready       Av.                      Total
           Ready  Repair  Reserve  Pilots  Experience  Morale  Fatigue  Missions
71st BS      15      1       0       15        88        66        0      680
498th BS     16      0       0       16        78        56        1      609
499th BS     16      0       0       16        81        58        1      659
500th BS     16      0       0       16        81        65        1      662

All 4 B-25s are changed to Ground attack against Nadzab, Nav Search 0 and altitude 6000 during turn 51. Jap units from Lae retreated to Nadzab.

Start turn 52 Port Moresby Weather Forecast: Partly Cloudy

Supply 37760
Supply Req. 12750
Av. Support 232
Av. Sup Req. 231

Code: Select all

             AC     AC      AC     Ready       Av.                      Total
           Ready  Repair  Reserve  Pilots  Experience  Morale  Fatigue  Missions
71st BS      15      1       0       15        88        72        0      680
498th BS     16      0       0       16        78        61        0      609
499th BS     16      0       0       16        81        60        0      659
500th BS     16      0       0       16        81        71        0      662

All 4 B-25s are changed to Ground attack against Salamaua, Nav Search 0 and altitude 8000 during turn 52. Jap units from Nadzab continued retreating to Salamaua plus other units already located there.

Start turn 53 Port Moresby Weather Forecast: Thunderstorms

Supply 36651
Supply Req. 12789
Av. Support 231
Av. Sup Req. 230

Code: Select all

             AC     AC      AC     Ready       Av.                      Total
           Ready  Repair  Reserve  Pilots  Experience  Morale  Fatigue  Missions
71st BS      14      2       0       15        88        71       20      691
498th BS     16      0       0       16        78        64       22      621
499th BS     16      0       0       16        81        58       21      671
500th BS     16      0       0       16        81        67       16      671

A total of 44 missions which is what I expect in this case.

71st was set to Training at 0% during turn 53. No change for the other squadrons.

Start turn 54 Port Moresby Weather Forecast: Thunderstorms

Supply 39126
Supply Req. 13078
Av. Support 230
Av. Sup Req. 229

Code: Select all

             AC     AC      AC     Ready       Av.                      Total
           Ready  Repair  Reserve  Pilots  Experience  Morale  Fatigue  Missions
71st BS      16      0       0       16        86        69        9      691
498th BS     16      0       0       16        79        62       10      621
499th BS     16      0       0       16        82        53       10      671
500th BS     16      0       0       16        82        63        8      671

During turn 54 is 71st set to Ground attack Salamaua, Nav Search 0 and alt. 6000.
The other squadrons are also reduced to 6000 feet.

Start turn 55 Port Moresby Weather Forecast: Rain

Supply 41682
Supply Req. 13063
Av. Support 229 A slight deficit
Av. Sup Req. 231

Code: Select all

             AC     AC      AC     Ready       Av.                      Total
           Ready  Repair  Reserve  Pilots  Experience  Morale  Fatigue  Missions
71st BS      16      0       0       16        86        70        4      703
498th BS     16      0       0       16        79        66        5      630
499th BS     16      0       0       16        82        53        5      683
500th BS     16      0       0       16        82        68        4      680

42 missions but how come the fatigue is less this time??

No change in orders for the squadrons.

Start turn 56 Port Moresby Weather Forecast: Thunderstorms

Supply 42936
Supply Req. 12965
Av. Support 230
Av. Sup Req. 230

Code: Select all

             AC     AC      AC     Ready       Av.                      Total
           Ready  Repair  Reserve  Pilots  Experience  Morale  Fatigue  Missions
71st BS      16      0       0       16        86        72        2      703
498th BS     16      0       0       16        79        71        2      630
499th BS     16      0       0       16        82        58        2      683
500th BS     16      0       0       16        82        74        1      680

No change in orders for the squadrons.

Start turn 57 Port Moresby Weather Forecast: Rain

Supply 41813
Supply Req. 12711
Av. Support 230
Av. Sup Req. 230

Code: Select all

             AC     AC      AC     Ready       Av.                      Total
           Ready  Repair  Reserve  Pilots  Experience  Morale  Fatigue  Missions
71st BS      16      0       0       16        86        75       22      715
498th BS     16      0       0       16        79        73        1      630
499th BS     16      0       0       16        82        63        0      683
500th BS     16      0       0       16        82        77        0      680

Only 71st flew this time.

No change in orders for the squadrons.

Start turn 58 Port Moresby Weather Forecast: Rain

Supply 40719
Supply Req. 12672
Av. Support 231
Av. Sup Req. 232 A slight deficit

Code: Select all

             AC     AC      AC     Ready       Av.                      Total
           Ready  Repair  Reserve  Pilots  Experience  Morale  Fatigue  Missions
71st BS      16      0       0       16        87        71       28      731
498th BS     16      0       0       16        79        73        0      630
499th BS     16      0       0       16        82        68        0      683
500th BS     16      0       0       16        82        77        0      680

Only 71st again but all 16 aircraft!!

No change in orders for the squadrons.

Start turn 59 Port Moresby Weather Forecast: Rain

Supply 39738
Supply Req. 12571
Av. Support 232
Av. Sup Req. 230

Code: Select all

             AC     AC      AC     Ready       Av.                      Total
           Ready  Repair  Reserve  Pilots  Experience  Morale  Fatigue  Missions
71st BS      16      0       0       16        87        67       13      731
498th BS     16      0       0       16        79        78        0      630
499th BS     16      0       0       16        82        70        0      683
500th BS     16      0       0       16        82        80        0      680

No change in orders for the squadrons.

Start turn 59 Port Moresby Weather Forecast: Thunderstorms

Supply 39150
Supply Req. 12527
Av. Support 233
Av. Sup Req. 230

Code: Select all

             AC     AC      AC     Ready       Av.                      Total
           Ready  Repair  Reserve  Pilots  Experience  Morale  Fatigue  Missions
71st BS      16      0       0       16        87        64        6      737
498th BS     16      0       0       16        79        83        0      630
499th BS     16      0       0       16        82        72        0      683
500th BS     16      0       0       16        82        83        0      680

Once again 71st flies on it's own and once again fatigue decreases anyway!!

No change in orders for the squadrons.

Start turn 60 Port Moresby Weather Forecast: Rain

Supply 38163
Supply Req. 12512
Av. Support 232
Av. Sup Req. 229

Code: Select all

             AC     AC      AC     Ready       Av.                      Total
           Ready  Repair  Reserve  Pilots  Experience  Morale  Fatigue  Missions
71st BS      15      1       0       16        87        67       18      747
498th BS     16      0       0       16        79        87       19      642
499th BS     16      0       0       16        82        74       16      692
500th BS     15      1       0       16        82        86       15      689

40 missions. Looks normal again.

This was the last turn in the scenarion so no more data available. It would have been perfectly normal except for the 2 occasions when 71st attacked alone (once with 16 out of 16 AC!) and the 2 occasions when missions had been flown but fatigue was lower the next day.

Any comments to this?

Best regards
BPRE

Matrix Games Forums

How many planes can an airfield operate?

How many planes can an airfield operate?

Re: How many planes can an airfield operate?

Sorry

Re: Sorry

Thanks

Actual figures from a game