Matrix Games Forums

"Dear Marquo,

We noticed you have downloaded some turns multiple times. If you are having any technical issues please report them to at www.slitherine.com/forum.
We'll do our best to resolve any issues and get you up and running ASAP.

Regards,

The Slitherine Team.
http://www.slitherine.com"


I just received this email, and I want this aired and resolved in public. First off, my opponent is Kevin Lily, and in case he received a notice that this may have happened, I want to assure him and catagorically deny that I ever knowingly downloaded a server turn, played it to my dissatisfaction, discarded it, and replayed it. Several days ago I received several "upload error" messages from the server, and had to replay part of turn I had saved prior; note that I was also unable to download the file for replay several times before I was successful at reloading, playing and uploading. I was out of town in a hotel apparently with an unstable internet connection.

Now, to Slitherine: please consider presenting the community with a log of what happened durning our game that prompted this message. This exercise will not only serve to reinforce my/our confidence in your surveillance and anticheat system, further it may clarify that every alarm on your end is not related to intentional cheating.

Thanks for your vigilence,

Marquo

I've been asking for more transparency on this "anti-cheating" stuff for a long time. In this case I seriously doubt that your opponent was informed (until your post anyway), so probably no big deal.

Why to redownload? Anyone could simply download once and backup file.

ORIGINAL: deoved
Why to redownload? Anyone could simply download once and backup file.

I guess you don't play server games? You can't "backup" files for server games, only save them to the server, which is problematic if you don't have access to the server because of server or internet issues.

FYI, there was an extensive and very useful discussion of this entire issue in the Field of Glory forum.

http://www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=91&t=32857

Best,

Tim

There really isn't an anti cheating mechanism per say, as you can close the game without saving, so you can replay a bad combat result, for example. Personally I've gotten the same email in my current game vs 821, since I never replay turns in one go. My routine goes something like: open turn, panic, take nad pose screenshots for AAR, close turn, think, open turn, make air changes, combat, save, troop movement, rail and bureaucratic stuff, end turn. So in an average turn I probably end up downloading a turn 3 or 4 times.

ORIGINAL: notenome
Since I never replay turns in one go. My routine goes something like: open turn, panic, take nad pose screenshots for AAR, close turn, think, open turn, make air changes, combat, save, troop movement, rail and bureaucratic stuff, end turn. So in an average turn I probably end up downloading a turn 3 or 4 times.

But do you save before exiting? If you do, it is not cheating because you can't undo favorable results.

If you're not saving, and are doing it 3-4 times a turn and have not been banned yet, I'm not sure that I understand why Matrix has an "anti-cheating" program... I'm not saying that you are cheating, mind you, but the server would have no way of knowing if you were or not.

That's precisely what I'm saying, there really isn't an anti cheating service, or at least it doesn't seem that way. The first time I open a turn, all I do is take screenshots, so I just exit instead of saving as I don't actually do anything. This actually got me curious what would happen if I made a move and quit, so I did a meaningless attack (I think it was a sec regiment on a nearby motorized or panzer division, can't remember) and quit, and nothing happened. So it would be possible for someone to cheat the system.

The problem here is the possibility of someone making moves, and if the results are not favorable, they quit and try again. IF there is an anticheating system, then a secondary problem might be if a player with a routine like me, that doesn't play his turns all at once, but does them gradually, would be punished accidently even though no cheating (ie, replaying unfavourable moves) is involved, which seems to be what concerned Marquo in the op.

ORIGINAL: notenome
IF there is an anticheating system, then a secondary problem might be if a player with a routine like me, that doesn't play his turns all at once, but does them gradually, would be punished accidently even though no cheating...is involved...

Well, yes, but this could be easily fixed by changing your routine so that you save before exiting.

ORIGINAL: notenome

That's precisely what I'm saying, there really isn't an anti cheating service, or at least it doesn't seem that way. The first time I open a turn, all I do is take screenshots, so I just exit instead of saving as I don't actually do anything. This actually got me curious what would happen if I made a move and quit, so I did a meaningless attack (I think it was a sec regiment on a nearby motorized or panzer division, can't remember) and quit, and nothing happened. So it would be possible for someone to cheat the system.

The problem here is the possibility of someone making moves, and if the results are not favorable, they quit and try again. IF there is an anticheating system, then a secondary problem might be if a player with a routine like me, that doesn't play his turns all at once, but does them gradually, would be punished accidently even though no cheating (ie, replaying unfavourable moves) is involved, which seems to be what concerned Marquo in the op.

But you did get a mail didn't you? That would seem to indicate that the anti-cheating system works, since doing as you describe is definitely an indicator of cheating (not saying that you cheat, just that doing what you describe ought to trigger the anti-cheating system).

right, but I'm not sure that my opponent, 821 got a mail, for example. Personally I think the best way to fix this is to autosave on exit. Also, when I tested the anticheating system (with the sec regiment) I didn't get a mail, that happened much latter. We should probably get 821 to comment, see if he got anything.

I assume the system doesn't trigger on the occasional incident, since that could depend on glitches in internet connection etc, but on repeated occurrences.

I think the game needs a prominent 'Save to server' button with the Quit button disabled for server games.
I'm certain that a lot of people don't realize that you're not supposed to use the Quit button when playing on the server.

ORIGINAL: notenome
Personally I think the best way to fix this is to autosave on exit.

I guess this would work for people unintentionally exiting the program but not for people using Ctl-Alt-Del to kill the game's process; don't think you can do much about that, but at least it would be clearer that they were cheating.

yes but then downloading the turn multiple times would be a major red flag (no pun intended). Sure, it happening occasionally could be the result of a CTD, but over the course of a 250 turn GC it would become quite evident. The problem right now (in my mind) is that there is a legitimate reason for redownloading a turn (though I'll probably be changing my routine now). In the end we will always be bound to the honor system one way or another, since saving game information after every move is completely unfeasible.

ORIGINAL: notenome
The problem right now (in my mind) is that there is a legitimate reason for redownloading a turn (though I'll probably be changing my routine now).

I still don't really understand the legitimate reason for redownloading? I just keep the game open on my computer and save whenever I want to exit or whenever I've spent a lot of time making moves. I can't say that I ever feel the need to intentionally exit without saving, although sometimes it happens if my computer hangs up, etc.

I would like to see the log. Tiller games get around this by having a PBEM No File Save option; clean and elegant. Not for everyone for sure, but a nice option.

Marquo