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This is a huge loophole in the rules I discovered yesterday in my lunch break. While pondering the supply model I re read the rules for some revision. And read this:

20.4.4. Return of Excess Supply
If a non-HQ unit, to include air base and rail repair units, has 200 percent or more of a type of supply on hand, it will return them to the HQ unit to which it is attached. An air base units must be within 15 hexes of its HQ unit to return excess supply, while all other units must be within 10 hexes. This return of excess supply cannot occur if either the unit or its HQ unit is currently isolated.


This got me thinking about Army airbases. What would happen if I sent all my Army recon planes to reserve? What would happen to the excess fuel on these air bases? Well it all goes to the Army level HQ, inc Panzer Armies.

I ran a test. After a little tinkering I managed to get well over 3000 tons of gas in to Pz Grp 3 around Smolensk on turn 4. I attached every Pz/Mot Division in the group. Next turn I had an entire Panzer Army fuelled up to near enough to 100% and still had over 1500 tons of gas in the HQ. And not one HQBU used or truck wasted.

Then with some shuffling of recon planes between Pz Grp airbases every 2nd turn I managed to get every Pz Grp HQ up to over 3000 tons of fuel, and maintain that continuous state right up to Moscow and beyond.

I can't imaging anyone actually doing this because it would be a super duper mega cheese, dare I say cheating. It makes muling look like chicken feed.

This is not a bug because it's clearly written in the rules, but it needs to be fixed ASAP. It's totally unacceptable and I am very surprised it has not been uncovered till now.

Good find, thanks. It should get on the list and get fixed somehow in the next release. Until then, players should not take advantage of this as it was not intended as a way of resupplying your HQs.

"I can't imaging anyone actually doing this because it would be a super duper mega cheese, dare I say cheating. It makes muling look like chicken feed."

More and more I find myself drawn back to cardboard counters, a map and dice. I can imagine someone doing this; shit, I may have done it 100 times already inadvertently everytime I sent my airforce back to the National Reserve for the blizzard, etc.

Marquo [X(]

Now Michael T will never have to stop for gas! [:D]

ORIGINAL: Marquo

More and more I find myself drawn back to cardboard counters, a map and dice.

Marquo [X(]

+1

I actually got my GDW game boxes out of the cupboard last week. They are sitting on my table

Added to the list as BG0074 and moved to the tech support forum.

ORIGINAL: Marquo

"I can't imaging anyone actually doing this because it would be a super duper mega cheese, dare I say cheating. It makes muling look like chicken feed."

More and more I find myself drawn back to cardboard counters, a map and dice. I can imagine someone doing this; shit, I may have done it 100 times already inadvertently everytime I sent my airforce back to the National Reserve for the blizzard, etc.

Marquo [X(]

Bwoaf, it's a bug like others.
Good show of Micheal for reporting it though!

+1

dont share these things plz.. use it to smash the sov fanboys dominating these pages

Noted this before, but I always assumed AVGAS was separate and never thought of grounding the LW and diverting their gas to Army. Now as Soviet, this could be used to get to Poland in the 1941 Blizzard as there are large numbers of airbases which can be cheaply attached to Fronts. Thinking about it, after 1941, this is a deadly logistics bypass for the Red Army.

Ah, the smell of freshly clipped carboard counters....

Marquo [:)]

ORIGINAL: juret

dont share these things plz.. use it to smash the sov fanboys dominating these pages

And to smah the complaining axis fanboys in return.

Ahhh, all those airfields I no longer need....

Now as Soviet, this could be used to get to Poland in the 1941 Blizzard as there are large numbers of airbases which can be cheaply attached to Fronts.

No, you can't.

ORIGINAL: Helpless

Now as Soviet, this could be used to get to Poland in the 1941 Blizzard as there are large numbers of airbases which can be cheaply attached to Fronts.

No, you can't.
[/quote

Do you mean they can't be cheaply attached ( thye can, see screen shot) or you cannot harvest the fuel?

You cannot attach them legally. Unless you disband the Air HQ. But in this case all air units will fail all the rolls. The fuel won't be so cheap. Advance provided is very questionable.

Ah. Never actually tried this for Soviets or Axis, unlikely to have the time to check on it's utility before it is patched away anyway. The Reds start with lots disbandable HQs, lots of planes ( well all really ) you don't care whether they pass any rolls, and you just want to shuttle them in - out to use this gas exploit. Moot point now anyway.

I love the game and the hard work put into it, but this is a hoho so simple thing that anyone simply reading the rules before playing can see.

How these things get over looked again and again shows that more poeple who think out side the box need to be part of play testing the game long before it goes gold.

This is an exploit not a bug. An over looked loop hole in the rules

Its old news to a few and a new discovery to most.

Again EVERYONE including the devs really need to take 4 to 6 hours and read the rule book they might "discover" other exploits for both sides.

ORIGINAL: Pelton

I love the game and the hard work put into it, but this is a hoho so simple thing that anyone simply reading the rules before playing can see.

...

Hardly. The game was out about 18 months before MichaelT found the exploit.

ORIGINAL: elmo3

ORIGINAL: Pelton

I love the game and the hard work put into it, but this is a hoho so simple thing that anyone simply reading the rules before playing can see.

...

Hardly. The game was out about 18 months before MichaelT found the exploit.

Others knew of it long ago.

Seeing its is a rule why would I or anyone esle thats known of it for months even think of it as an exploit or for that matter anything specail at all? Its in the rule book in black and white. MT just discoveryed it heheheheheheh

A discovery? Hehehehe

An 18th month old discovery to me and a few others.

I find it amazing that something thats a rule is seen as a bug or that its some kind of revelation.

Like I said, "spend some time reading the rules and you might just discover a few other "new" revelations."

MT supply system was better then mine (muling, air HQ's, ect) but now with the nerfs my base system is back on top.

It has much more risk and reward. It has a down side, but rule changes in 1.05 and 1.06 have improved it. Both the down side and the reward side.

Again I really love the game and keep coming back with something new after each patch.

I still have allot of tweeking to do to the supply system, C&C, ect ect.

25 games later and I still am learning new stuff with every game and AAR I read. To be totally honest I still have not read the hole rule book. After playing vs the computer a few times I quickly relized what 75% of the game was all about and have been spending most of my time unlocking that box.

By far the best game I have played to date and worth much much more then its cost.

At some point when my 3 kids are all in collage( 1 yr) I might by WITP. Unless of course WiTW is out.

The more complex the game, the higher the chances are that there will be loop holes to drive supplies and other things through [:)]

Pelton

I find it amazing that something thats a rule is seen as a bug or that its some kind of revelation.

This is an exploit, not a bug. Something that is working as designed, but not being used as designed or intended (looping air bases through the national reserve as extra supply depots).
In the little bit I've dabbled in software testing (not games, mind you) most of the effort goes into making sure things work the way they're supposed to.
'Misuse' has almost infinite variables.
The bosses want a 'fool proof' system and I always tried to explain one can easily underestimate the ingenuity of fools.
In this case players want a 'gamey proof' system, but the ingenuity of players can be underestimated.
Folks interested in a good game will bring these issues to the attention of developers.
Folks more interested in win/loss records will keep them to themselves.