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Latest Scenario End Date?
Posted: Sat Jun 23, 2012 8:42 pm
by dwg
I'm looking at a AH/scenario concept ('Orient Express') in which the Allied offensive is significantly delayed by a need for an even greater concentration on the European theatre than historically due to a Russian collapse during the Battle for Moscow and in which the Manhattan Project produces a series of fizzles. Obviously this means Downfall will be considerably delayed. I know the game will play into '46 if the scenario is set up for it, but how much later will it play if needed?
I've been through the manual, but the only mentions of later dates I can find relate to how the game handles 'natural' game ends in '46, not to how late a scenario can be set to run. I can set later start dates easily enough to find if a game will run at a later date, but that doesn't guarantee that there aren't built-in end-conditions a game running day by day might trip. Anyone know if there's anything might catch me out?
I can work around it by offsetting dates if necessary (and live with things like director and AA improvements being hard-coded by date), but I'd prefer not to.
RE: Latest Scenario End Date?
Posted: Sat Jun 23, 2012 9:11 pm
by JWE
LOL .. "How much later will it play if needed?" That's always the question, isn't it.
As Brother Buck Beach says, "Welcome to our Wonderful World". [8D]
[ed] Joshing aside the code has certain things happen in '44 and other things happen in '45. Absolutely nothing happens after that. The game can go as long as you like, but the algorithm for many things will be predicated on a 1944 baseline. As it was in the beginning, is now and ever shall be, world without end, amen, amen.
RE: Latest Scenario End Date?
Posted: Sat Jun 23, 2012 10:51 pm
by JeffroK
I think he wants to know the latest date which can be entered in the scenario editor.
RE: Latest Scenario End Date?
Posted: Sat Jun 23, 2012 11:18 pm
by JWE
ORIGINAL: JeffK
I think he wants to know the latest date which can be entered in the scenario editor.
As I said;
"The game can go as long as you like,"
But I must get somewhat technical, you can't do anything after 1999, because there will be a serious Y2K issue because of a divide by less than zero thing.
RE: Latest Scenario End Date?
Posted: Sun Jun 24, 2012 1:52 am
by Shark7
I've safely set one up to go to the end of 1947. And that is far more than is needed TBH, most games won't last that long anyway. [;)]
It's not so much a matter of 'is it possible', rather it is a question of 'is it plausible?' [:)]
RE: Latest Scenario End Date?
Posted: Sun Jun 24, 2012 6:04 am
by JeffroK
ORIGINAL: JWE
ORIGINAL: JeffK
I think he wants to know the latest date which can be entered in the scenario editor.
As I said;
"The game can go as long as you like,"
But I must get somewhat technical, you can't do anything after 1999, because there will be a serious Y2K issue because of a divide by less than zero thing.
Great, I thought it had a max of 1947 or similar.
What Matrix didnt get the game Y2K fixed!!
RE: Latest Scenario End Date?
Posted: Sun Jun 24, 2012 10:12 am
by PaxMondo
I'll bet not on the list for the devs and the fact that the date logic is prolly deeply imbeded into the code. Y2K alone might have taken a month of development for what gain? As JWE states, the game is "pinned" against a 1944 date. Starting much earlier than 12/41 or goiing much later tahn 6/46 and too many assumptions will fall apart.
Ex: if the game seriously went into '47, the allies would be flying almost exclusively jets. I suspect the game air model struggles with the speed difference between Oscars and F-80's. In current scenarios these match ups would be rare. Go into late 46, the allies would be fielding +150/mo jets and it would become pretty common.
RE: Latest Scenario End Date?
Posted: Sun Jun 24, 2012 12:04 pm
by dwg
ORIGINAL: JeffK
I think he wants to know the latest date which can be entered in the scenario editor.
Not quite - it's easy enough to check if you can enter a scenario end date of, say, 6 June 47. It's much more difficult to determine if there is some buried piece of code that means the game will stop dead on, say, 13 Nov 46 just as you're setting up to execute the offensive you've spent several hundred turns preparing - which might be a tad irritating.
The manual doesn't seem to tell me that, but we have a few people here anointed with the secret knowledge of the WITP code base.
RE: Latest Scenario End Date?
Posted: Sun Jun 24, 2012 12:24 pm
by dwg
ORIGINAL: PaxMondo
Starting much earlier than 12/41 or goiing much later tahn 6/46 and too many assumptions will fall apart.
Oh I agree, but if you're willing to work within those limitations then you can still find something to entertain you.
Ex: if the game seriously went into '47, the allies would be flying almost exclusively jets.
Actually it's not that extreme, yes a lot of jets will be in service, but the bottom line is a lot of those don't have spectacularly better performance than the last generation piston designs, while many of those same last generation piston aircraft didn't reach production status until the last months of the war, or even later: P-82, F8B, Skypirate, Destroyer, Mixmaster, B-35, Sea Fury, Wyvern, Brigand, Firebrand, Firecrest, MB-5, CA-15, Spearfish, Lincoln, Hornet and so on. It's not a short list and part of the point is to explore how things change if you have large carrier battles involving late war rather than early war airgroups. For a historical precedent, look at what went into action over Korea, particularly in the opening phases where USAF was dragging the bottom of the barrel trying to find piston fighters to deploy for CAS in preference to jets.
RE: Latest Scenario End Date?
Posted: Sun Jun 24, 2012 12:37 pm
by PaxMondo
I agree, late war fighters are not likely to be an issue. It's when late war fighters go up against early war aircraft in a kami mode. I'm not sure how well the air combat model holds together. But, good luck testing. post results here. [8D]
RE: Latest Scenario End Date?
Posted: Sun Jun 24, 2012 12:50 pm
by dwg
>> It's when late war fighters go up against early war aircraft in a kami mode. I'm not sure how well the air combat model holds together. <<
Good thought, having had a carrier group swarmed by kamikazes playing stock Downfall it should be interesting
RE: Latest Scenario End Date?
Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 6:27 am
by JeffroK
ORIGINAL: PaxMondo
I'll bet not on the list for the devs and the fact that the date logic is prolly deeply imbeded into the code. Y2K alone might have taken a month of development for what gain? As JWE states, the game is "pinned" against a 1944 date. Starting much earlier than 12/41 or goiing much later tahn 6/46 and too many assumptions will fall apart.
Ex: if the game seriously went into '47, the allies would be flying almost exclusively jets. I suspect the game air model struggles with the speed difference between Oscars and F-80's. In current scenarios these match ups would be rare. Go into late 46, the allies would be fielding +150/mo jets and it would become pretty common.
I dont recall buying this before 2000?
Matrix is selling games with oldddddd engines, never!
RE: Latest Scenario End Date?
Posted: Sat Jul 14, 2012 6:30 am
by inqistor
ORIGINAL: dwg
I'm looking at a AH/scenario concept ('Orient Express') in which the Allied offensive is significantly delayed by a need for an even greater concentration on the European theatre than historically due to a Russian collapse during the Battle for Moscow and in which the Manhattan Project produces a series of fizzles. Obviously this means Downfall will be considerably delayed. I know the game will play into '46 if the scenario is set up for it, but how much later will it play if needed?
I've been through the manual, but the only mentions of later dates I can find relate to how the game handles 'natural' game ends in '46, not to how late a scenario can be set to run. I can set later start dates easily enough to find if a game will run at a later date, but that doesn't guarantee that there aren't built-in end-conditions a game running day by day might trip. Anyone know if there's anything might catch me out?
I can work around it by offsetting dates if necessary (and live with things like director and AA improvements being hard-coded by date), but I'd prefer not to.
The only problem is pilot pool, because there are fields only up to IIRC 1948, for pilot replacements (but maybe there is workaround, during working with EXCEL files). You can always drop so much pilots in earlier years, that later 0 will have no influence (except for Japanese economy).
RE: Latest Scenario End Date?
Posted: Sat Jul 14, 2012 8:50 pm
by Commander Stormwolf
how about a Korean war / French Indo China / Malaya 1946-1953 mod