Matrix Games Forums

Ok, I've got a few not particularly game related questions that I am unable to find answers for (although I have large amounts of literature piled around the place).

1. Can someone explain to me the reasons behind IJN sub doctrine in WW2. Plenty of stuff to tell me what it is, but not why. Is it just a case of saving torpedoes for meaner targets, or did they want the US to ship lots of supplies forward without trouble so they could then capture them (latter idea doesn't hold water, because I'm sure IJN and IJA bombers were quite happy to blow up US transports.

2. Ship type designations. DD, BB, CV, CA, CL, etc. There has to be a historical reason/meaning to these things (which are abbreviations maybe?). E.g. Does CV stand for Carrier Vessel. CL= Cruiser light, etc. If so, what does DD stand for? Dastardly Destroyer? Or are they just arbitrary designations thought up sometime after the ironclad was invented?

Just wondering. I hate not knowing things like this.

My understanding of IJN sub doctrine is pretty limited so if I'm wrong I'm sure somebody will enlighten me.

I read somewhere that they considered it beneath them to engage anything other than warships. Warriors and all you know.

As far as ship class designations go........... beats me. Most of them don't make any sense to me. I had to print the appendix of abbreviations from the manual and tape it to the side of my monitor when I started playing the game. I still have to refer to it from time to time.

Posted by Luskan

1. Can someone explain to me the reasons behind IJN sub doctrine in WW2. Plenty of stuff to tell me what it is, but not why. Is it just a case of saving torpedoes for meaner targets, or did they want the US to ship lots of supplies forward without trouble so they could then capture them (latter idea doesn't hold water, because I'm sure IJN and IJA bombers were quite happy to blow up US transports.

Best thing to do is go RTFB (Library - book - read) or (Internet - pop up advertising - virus - ahhhh!!!!!!). AFAIK, doctrine related to Jap Big Bang Battle (1930's) theory which goes something like this (start Japanese intro music).
USN many, many - IJN few.
Japan wants to free poor Asians from colonial bondage. America does not.
How to beat big bad guy?????

Something like this.
1) Create smaller but highly trained navy. All ships designed to be superior (if possible) to USN counterparts.
2) Declare war (before or after hostilities).
3) Draw USN across Pacific (ie do something naughty there like invade Phillipines).
4) Use subs to track and weaken USN fleet on way (sub losses irrelevent so long as the're weakening USN battleline and support).
5) Night before Big Bang Battle (head to head between IJN and USN battlelines), launch surprise night attack with Kongo's and night trained cruisers and DD's (many, many big torpedoes). USN weakened further.
6) Day of Big Bang Battle - IJN battleline crushes weakened USN battleline - good guys win - game over.

This plan (obviously I've dumbed it down - what am I, a bloody historian?), or something like it, dominated Jap naval planning pre war. Notice several things - BB's were dominant and CV's weren't mentioned (they were really treated intially as ships to aid scouting and maybe hurt the enemy a bit) - Jap night/torpedo doctrine stemmed from this plan - same for sub doctrine.

As you know, there was no big bang battle but the doctrines were kept (don't want to waste all that training!!!).

Now watch the real historians rip what I described to pieces.

2. Ship type designations. DD, BB, CV, CA, CL, etc. There has to be a historical reason/meaning to these things (which are abbreviations maybe?). E.g. Does CV stand for Carrier Vessel. CL= Cruiser light, etc. If so, what does DD stand for? Dastardly Destroyer? Or are they just arbitrary designations thought up sometime after the ironclad was invented?

CV = Cruiser aViation (beats me)
CA = Cruiser Armoured
CL = Cruiser Light
and the rest are the result of someone who stutters.

P.S. Most of the above is half guess and half bad memory but I was in between PBEM turns and just thought "what the hell".

Actually Drongo, that's probably the best short explanation of the Japanese Decisive Battle Doctrine I've seen to date. The plan itself was deeply flawed and eminently shred-worthy, but your explanation is fine.

Luskan, the specific relevance of the JDBD for IJN sub doctrine is pretty much what you and Drongo said - since the subs were meant to hunt bigger game, merchies were considered a waste of perfectly good torps. Mojo is also at least partly correct, in that most Japanese officers felt that logistics matters (both their own and their opponents') were beneath them, being unworthy pursuits for a True Warrior of Bushido (TM).

A good source for this is "Kaigun" by Evans and Peattie, which goes into much greater depth on the JDBD and its consequences.

We're all imbetween pbem turns

Posted by Luskan

We're all imbetween pbem turns

Wouldn't study be a more productive way to spend your downtime (check your spelling)? I know UV looks great on the resume but maybe a degree could too.

Study is for the weak minded, and "classes will dull your mind" (John Nash).

Besides - I've already done my two majors. Just finishing up the scraps before post grad.

I'll study later (famous last words I know).

Originally posted by Luskan

2. Ship type designations. DD, BB, CV, CA, CL, etc. There has to be a historical reason/meaning to these things (which are abbreviations maybe?). E.g. Does CV stand for Carrier Vessel. CL= Cruiser light, etc. If so, what does DD stand for? Dastardly Destroyer? Or are they just arbitrary designations thought up sometime after the ironclad was invented?

Have a look at the sci.military.naval FAQ:
http://www.hazegray.org/faq/smn2.htm#B3

CV (Cruiser, aViation) is a bit of a special case since the first CVs were intended to scout for and assist a battleship fleet- the role of a cruiser.

I believe the doubled names are just to make 2-letter combos for ships that would otherwise have only a base designation.

Originally posted by Luskan
Ok, I've got a few not particularly game related questions that I am unable to find answers for (although I have large amounts of literature piled around the place).

1. Can someone explain to me the reasons behind IJN sub doctrine in WW2. Plenty of stuff to tell me what it is, but not why. Is it just a case of saving torpedoes for meaner targets, or did they want the US to ship lots of supplies forward without trouble so they could then capture them (latter idea doesn't hold water, because I'm sure IJN and IJA bombers were quite happy to blow up US transports.

Additional background to the excellent info already posted.

In the 1890s Alfred T Mahan wrote three books on naval strategy. The one he is most famous for is The Influence of Sea Power Upon History, 1660-1783 (1890). He believed that who ever controlled the lines of communications across the sea would prevail in any war. To control the LOC you needed a large fleet. To defeat your enemy you needed to defeat his fleet.

"It is not the taking of individual ships or convoys, be they few or many, that strikes down the money power of a nation; it is possession of that overbearing power on the sea which drives the enemy's flag from it, or allows it to appear only as a fugitive; and which, by controlling the great common, closes the highways by which commerce moves to and from the enemy's shores."

He also believed that the essential decision in war could be achieved quickly, like the dramatic Austerlitz battle but transferred to the sea. In other words one huge sea battle. It was this book that grave rise to the Naval arms race and the great Dreadnought fleets of WWI. The Japanese followed this doctrine and were vindicated in their beliefs when they defeated the Russians in 1905 at Tsushima.

In short the Japanese were incapable of even considering changing their long standing naval doctrine. Even in the last stages of the war, the Japanese hoped for one big naval engagement to decide the issue.

Rick

Hi Luskan

To post a reply to your question....about why the Japanese went after warships versus supply ships.

It was the Japanese mentality of the time. For hundreds of years, the samurai warrior was predominant in their society...and the code of these Samuari..the Bushido code guided their actions.

The Japanese society of WWII was very militaristic in nature and the code of the Samurai was prevalent throughout the different services. It was highly honorable to fight in combat...to face your enemy...and anything other than this was less than honorable. That is one of the reasons that they did not do so well in the areas of logistics or communications...these were not skills the warrior would use..therefore they were second class.

So as for the submarines...it was expected to go after the warships...and to shoot a supply ship would go against that code...for these were not worthwhile targets.

Sabre21

I believe the "V" in CV, VF, VMF, VS, VB, VT, stands for "heaVier than air", as goofy as that sounds. One of those historical things. Various sources on the internet back me up.

Also, Cruiser Designations.

I thought "VB" stood for Victoria Bitters.

Posted by Xpav

I believe the "V" in CV, VF, VMF, VS, VB, VT, stands for "heaVier than air", as goofy as that sounds. One of those historical things. Various sources on the internet back me up.

You're prob right. It makes so much more sense than aViation (what was I thinking?).

Posted by denisonh

I thought "VB" stood for Victoria Bitters.

I think your going to have to accept your fate, mate, and come live in Oz.

Hello All.
IIRC the present system can trace its origins back to WW1 Signaling Systems.
Where a Ship clasification code was introduced.
I can't recall exactly by who, but it Seems to have become in universial use by the Allies, by the end of WW1.

B = Pre Dreadnaught type Battleship
BA = Superdreadnaught type Battleship
BB = Dreadnaught type Battleship
BC = Dreadnaught type Cruiser (Battlecruiser)
Note that after 1922, the distinction between Superdreadnaughts and Dreadnaughts was dropped, and all became BB's.

C = Cruiser
CA = Armoured Cruiser (1st class Cruisers + some 2nd Class)
After 1922, became used for the new "Heavy" Cruiser classification, as all surviving Armoured Cruisers became Heavy Cruisers.
CP = Protected Cruiser (2nd or 3rd Class Cruiser)
CV = Aviation Cruiser or Seaplane Carrier
CL = Light Cruiser
CS = Scouting Cruiser
CM = Minelayer (Usually a converted Cruiser)
CT = Corvette (Cruiser, Tiny???:D )

TB = Torpedo Boat
TBD = Torpedo Boat Destroyer ( Coal Fuel )
D or DD = Torpedo Boat Destroyer ( Oil Fuel )

F or FF = Frigate

S or SS = Submarine

AMC = Armed Merchant Cruiser

AC = Auxillary, Coalier
AD = Auxillary, Destroyer Tender
AK = Auxillary, Cargo Ship
AO = Auxillary, Oiler
AP = Auxillary, Passenger Ship
AR = Auxillary, Repair Ship
AS = Auxillary, Submarine Tender
AV = Auxillary, Aviation Tender