Page 1 of 1
REcon vs NAval search
Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2012 1:45 pm
by fulcrum28
There are several interlinked concepts in the game: Recon, Naval Search and Patrol.
1.what are the main differences between REcon and Naval search?
2.Naval search can be set in arcs and recon may focus on takeing aerial photographies or specific targets?
3.Patrol appear above the arc settings but it seems not a mission itself, right?
4. if no arc setting is given, the allocated planes(50)5 will search in random directions?
5. If DB(Val) are performing naval search or REcon and find enemy TFs, may they also conduct an attack?
Thank you in advance.
RE: REcon vs NAval search
Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2012 1:50 pm
by TheLoneGunman_MatrixForum
I believe even with arcs set, your aircraft will always search the 4 hexes surrounding their base (it may be the first 3 hexes, but I know they will search around the base before going off to their designated arc.
Recon is performed only on bases and dot hexes, it's used to gain detection level on a location and provides info such as the estimated number of troops present, aircraft located at the base, ships in port, etc. Keep in mind, fog of war means this info isn't 100% accurate.
Naval search will only locate TFs in range of the aircraft patrolling and in accordance with any search arc or lackthereof, recon will only give you info on the hex that is reconned.
RE: REcon vs NAval search
Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2012 4:03 pm
by dr.hal
I find an aspect to this question very interesting. How do you "search" for land forces? Right now I'm fearing an attack via land routes on Rangoon in my PBEM game. I would like to "search" the approaches to that vital city, but if I can't use "search" planes on arcs over the land mass to get information as there are no "taskforces" on land, then I'm screwed. Because if TheloneGunman is right, search aircraft can only "see" TFs, then land movement can only be detected through recon which can only be directed at "dot" or named hexes. So is there a big hole in the search arena? Hal
RE: REcon vs NAval search
Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2012 4:12 pm
by Puhis
You can also recon non-base or non-dot hexes, at least if that hex have enemy units. I'm not sure is it possible to recon "random" hexes.
RE: REcon vs NAval search
Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2012 4:52 pm
by dr.hal
Ok Puhis, that is true, but note the problem in your response, "if that hex has enemy units", the point I'm trying to make is that you don't know if any given hex has units, the reason for a search is to find those units and then recon the heck out of them to get better intel. If you can recon a blank hex, ok (not sure if you can) BUT that is a LOT of blank hexes to "search" one hex at a time..... Hal
RE: REcon vs NAval search
Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2012 6:34 pm
by Lcp Purcell
Yaah I sure wish there was a land unit search option for recon planes. But you can indeed recon any hex, even if there is no unit present, so if you divided recon air groups, it is possible to cover a good number of hexes... but what a pain.
RE: REcon vs NAval search
Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2012 6:40 pm
by dr.hal
ORIGINAL: Lcp Purcell
Yaah I sure wish there was a land unit search option for recon planes. But you can indeed recon any hex, even if there is no unit present, so if you divided recon air groups, it is possible to cover a good number of hexes... but what a pain.
Is this truly the only option to "search" land hexes for land units????????
RE: REcon vs NAval search
Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2012 8:30 pm
by AlanBernardo
Recon is performed only on bases and dot hexes, it's used to gain detection level on a location and provides info such as the estimated number of troops present, aircraft located at the base, ships in port, etc. Keep in mind, fog of war means this info isn't 100% accurate.
Can you point to the page number where the above is explained?
Toward the bottom of p. 150, it says,
"Recon- The unit will send one plane to perform photoreconnaissance of an enemy base, ground unit or TF (Large recon air groups may fly 2 planes per Recon Mission flown.)"
Unless they are speaking of TFs in port, in which case the wording is ambiguous, then Recon missions can get information from TFs at sea.
It would seem odd if they couldn't.
Alan
RE: REcon vs NAval search
Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2012 3:31 am
by Puhis
You can't recon sea hexes or TFs. If base hex have TFs in port, recon planes can spot them.
RE: REcon vs NAval search
Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2012 7:31 am
by fulcrum28
I think all these opinions are important. I feel we have to clarify several aspects of the Recon missions, in particular for Land operations. Reco/Naval searches are the essence of this game
and the rules/features should be clear to make successful and realistic operations.
RE: REcon vs NAval search
Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2012 9:44 am
by dr.hal
ORIGINAL: fulcrum28
I think all these opinions are important. I feel we have to clarify several aspects of the Recon missions, in particular for Land operations. Reco/Naval searches are the essence of this game
and the rules/features should be clear to make successful and realistic operations.
I agree, and I don't understand why we can't "search" land hexes. I fully understand that it is much more difficult to understand what is in that hex, but not that something is there! Thus detection levels might be on a more difficult step system, but there should be some way to use the search assets you have to "see" an approaching force. Especially if that force is using road rates of movement and/or strategic movement which requires large assets of the transportation infrastructure. Thoughts??? Hal
RE: REcon vs NAval search
Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2012 10:37 am
by Justus2
I think it repesents the realistic problems of searching for military units on land (amidst all the clutter/terrain/civilians/etc), vs spotting ships at sea. NavSearch can look at multiple 40-NM hexes, because they expect 99% of the 'hex' to be open ocean, and anything that is not ocean, will stand out and be reported. Over land, there is always 'something' there. Recon flights frequently took multiple passes at various angles, due to terrain, it would be impossible to cover an area even as large as one hex thoroughly. Even then, the photos were reviewed afterwards to determine if what they saw (trucks, trains, people) had real military significance.
RE: REcon vs NAval search
Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2012 11:02 am
by AlanBernardo
ORIGINAL: Puhis
You can't recon sea hexes or TFs. If base hex have TFs in port, recon planes can spot them.
Thanks for the clarification. The way this is worded in the manual is ambiguous, implying as it does that any TF can be spotted by recon.
So is there a way to recon a TF at sea without the enemy knowing that you know it is there? I know there is Naval Search, but in doing a Naval Search won't an air unit attack that TF (at sea) if it finds it?
Alan
RE: REcon vs NAval search
Posted: Thu Aug 16, 2012 10:39 am
by dr.hal
ORIGINAL: Justus2
I think it repesents the realistic problems of searching for military units on land (amidst all the clutter/terrain/civilians/etc), vs spotting ships at sea. NavSearch can look at multiple 40-NM hexes, because they expect 99% of the 'hex' to be open ocean, and anything that is not ocean, will stand out and be reported. Over land, there is always 'something' there. Recon flights frequently took multiple passes at various angles, due to terrain, it would be impossible to cover an area even as large as one hex thoroughly. Even then, the photos were reviewed afterwards to determine if what they saw (trucks, trains, people) had real military significance.
Justus, as I indicated I fully understand it is more difficult BUT some aspects of movement are much more obvious and that might be reflected in a different rubric, for example, strategic movement of armor or other highly visible assets especially using rail movement, etc. So if the scales were changed and made more difficult for "land unit" discovery, then I think it would be a better "gaming" of reality. But it would also require a lot of rewrites, so I don't think it will happen. Hal