Axis Spoiling Attacks

[HITMAN202]

Often I'll use a spoiling attack (hasty) on a strongly defended hex with either a allied unit or a weak German unit that has extra MP's (can also participate in the primary attack.) ??? I think it helps ??? These failed attacks are usually not costly as "Scouted" is the outcome. ??? Opinions ???

[gingerbread]

Whatever you hope to gain by this should be weighed against the possible morale gain for the defending unit(s), as well as the possible loss for yours. I would use this technique very rarely, if at all.

[turtlefang]

I guess my first question is what are you trying to accomplish?

The second point, as already pointed out, is that any attack where you lose and the other side wins results in moral loss. Plus, it counts as a win for the Soviet unit toward Gd status.

So all I see is downside unless I'm missing something.

[hfarrish]

I guess if it is a truly critical attack, it could be helpful in the sense of helping accomplish the goal - only if, as mentioned, the costs of a failed spoiling attack are taken into account.

[Disgruntled Veteran]

Thats the only way I can get across the Neva. I launched about 10-12 hasty/deliberate attacks in my current mp game before attacking with my primary 6. I used up all the reserve activations and the defenders were so exhausted my failed assaults were only losing about 50 men per attack. When I did attack it was much easier. Plus I didnt worry about guards or enemy moral b/c they will all be trapped and destroyed.Otherwise I dont see how people get across that particular river.

Besides the Neva it should be kept to limited use...only against very hardened targets..Sebastopol etc.

[turtlefang]

I can understand its use as part of a major offensive trying to use up the enemy reserves - where I have a problem is using it in isolation.

And even in the former case - while I understand the strategy and have used it myself - I have to admit I always hold my breath until the attacks are over. Too big a chance of something going horribly wrong.

[Michael T]

I do this sometimes to get an accurate CV value of the enemy. It helps.

[HITMAN202]

I brought up this issue because it hasn't been talked about much. I have started to test some specific situations (with command, reserve and air support removed to factor out those important variables) and one such is that in attacking a single fortified stack (level 2 fort) with 2 units that will win 90 % of the time with a "retreat" result, an preliminary hasty attack does not 1) cause routs, 2) does not increase Soviet casualties, and 3) increases Axis losses. That does not include the likelihood drop of Axis morale and increase in Soviet. The best explanation of the above is that Soviet morale increase benefits their combat value far more than the negative impact of increased fatigue.

Michael T.'s point is great.

But goodness gracious Dis. Vet., 10-12 hasties to soften up a big target ??? The issue of depleting reserve support is important, but 10-12 hasties ??? Just the MP cost of making them across the Neva seem prohibitive and in attacking the forts behind the Neva the Axis usually have no units to waste. Can the benefit of reserve support truly be eliminated ???

Dis. Vet., do you see my point ???

[Disgruntled Veteran]

But goodness gracious Dis. Vet., 10-12 hasties to soften up a big target ??? The issue of depleting reserve support is important, but 10-12 hasties ??? Just the MP cost of making them across the Neva seem prohibitive and in attacking the forts behind the Neva the Axis usually have no units to waste. Can the benefit of reserve support truly be eliminated ???

Dis. Vet., do you see my point ???

Not really.

When attacking the province behind the Neva it had (in my game) a lvl 4 fort with a FZ and 2 Rifle divs who were fat and happy. My main attack force of 6 divs (Yes..Model commanding, 90+ morale, and all had stugs and pioneers attached) had a combined 75CV. Thats (edit: NOT) enough to dislodge that province in 1 attack...even without reserve activation.

What I did is find my 4 lowest morale divisions and broke them into regiments. Thats 12 units who can attack..1 deliberate or 2 hasty. I used them all. The first attack drew 2 reserve activations and my regiment was used like a Tijuana whore. Out of 5k men they lost like 3500. Each successive attack drew less losses. I activated 6-8 reserves (dont remember) and the defenders were fully fatigued. Then my 75 CV stacks of doom came in and finished the job.

Was it overkill? Maybe, but A-game held me back until late September. He put a lot of strength into defending L-grad and it was brutal. I had exactly 2 turns to isolate the city before mud. I wasn't taking any chances. I used the same tactic again to widen the bridgehead the following turn.

Outside of swinging far right and taking the "shipping" ports I don't see a better way against a solid defense.

[HITMAN202]

That's awesome Dis Vet. !!! I wonder if 2 hasties were less costly than 1 deliberate attack and trigger more Reserve activation ???? Did you also pelt the hex with a ton of air attacks and add on ground support ??? It's interesting. I've had so many turns as the Axis where the key to a major breakthrough was the success of a sequence of attacks in which the most critical was the first attack against a strongly fortified position. Your technique may be a winner .

[mmarquo]

Jaime described this technique as the Soviet --> multiple hasty soak off attacks with armour and inf brigades before the "big one." This tactic takes advantage of what I consider to be an issue with the combat resolution process: losses seem proportional to the total amount of combattants. If 2,000 attacks 50,000 many less will be lost than if 10,000 attacks 50,000....and visa versa. The soak off eats up ammunition and causes fatigue out of proportion to the effort.

Marquo

[Peltonx]

These same tactics can be used to take Moscow when there are 3 Guard Corps defending each hex.

I would generally only use 6 hasty as that in 9 of 10 cases is more then enough.

Also make sure to do this after the rest of the front is done, this will also nerf the GG effect.

I have used this tactic to punch 3 wide 4 deep throught 3 and 4 lvl fort belts in 42.

You have tons of crap units to pick a spot and hasty front line of hexes then push them as side. The 2nd row you can do same thing as the center hex is clear of ZOC.

The high morale infantry take out 3rd row of forts.

The panzer units then punch through rest. Most games I just do the 4 rows then SHC says screw this and runs.

The down side is SHC can do same crap during blizzard as TDV does better then anyone.

Its really 100% not relistic, but again another area some have been exploiting form release to-date. As GHC its really only usefully on a large scale during 42 as SHc during blizzard and 44-45.

I am hoping this exploit is not part of WITW.

Its another area of game that I am surpised never got exposed during testing. I have posted its use in other very old AAR's.

Anyways if you think about it there are allot of other uses for this gamey, cheesy, O tactic.