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I've read many Tom Clancy novels over the years. His early works were outstanding. His later works left much to be desired. His major character - Ryan - becomes Vice President of the United States. Is this just a coincidence? [:)]

...and then becomes President when nearly ALL of Congress is killed in a Kamikaze attack during a Joint Session. What are you saying here Dan?[X(]

Executive Orders is my favorite. Required it in my Political Science courses due to the questions of how would one reconstitute the Government? How would one pick the ENTIRE Supreme Court? GREAT stuff!

The election isn't over yet.

Discussing Tom Clancy is OK, I think we should steer away from any opinions about current US politics (or anybody's current politics). It's been over a month since a thread was locked and I'd like to keep the streak going.

That said, I did like many of Clancy's early books, but I lost interest after the 6th or 7th book. Something was missing that I can't put my finger on.

Bill

This absolutely isn't intended as a political thread, but would be fine for discussing Clancy books.
 
I think many successful authors write with passion early on.  Then, big contracts are thrown at them, meaning that they are "forced" to write something, anything, quickly.  Rather than the story coming from the heart it comes somewhere that the writer's muse doesn't hang out.

I think Rainbow Six is my favorite. The Bear and the Dragon was where things began to go downhill. It was overly long, and his attempts at erotic writing made for dozens of consecutive pages where I cringed.

That was also the point where he and his published began to rely on his name to promote 'co-authored' books which listed his name first along with a co-author. In reality the co-author would come up with an idea, write the book and Clancy would sign off after reading the manuscript.

I also remember some years ago he was a guest on Conan O'Brien. He seemed to have an ego the size of some of his novels.

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

This absolutely isn't intended as a political thread, but would be fine for discussing Clancy books.

I think many successful authors write with passion early on.  Then, big contracts are thrown at them, meaning that they are "forced" to write something, anything, quickly.  Rather than the story coming from the heart it comes somewhere that the writer's muse doesn't hang out.

Were they "Contractual Obligation " books rather than his normal output??

He should have dropped Jack Ryan and headed somewhere else.

ORIGINAL: JeffK

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

This absolutely isn't intended as a political thread, but would be fine for discussing Clancy books.

I think many successful authors write with passion early on.  Then, big contracts are thrown at them, meaning that they are "forced" to write something, anything, quickly.  Rather than the story coming from the heart it comes somewhere that the writer's muse doesn't hang out.

Were they "Contractual Obligation " books rather than his normal output??

He should have dropped Jack Ryan and headed somewhere else.

I don't know. Most authors live hand to mouth and scratch out a living. But when you get to the level of a Clancy, Grisham or Steele you might possibly be able to dictate terms to your publisher.

All I know is that I purchased two of them while on vacation a few years ago and they were awful.

Clancy lost the plot a while ago. His first two, the WWIII one and "Hunt for Red October," were his best. Then slightly less good and then the last one I read, can't remember which, not so good. I think a lot of writers have that issue.

Cheers,
CC

I still remember asking myself while reading "The Sum of All Fears," what does a couple of trees headed from the Pacific Northwest to Japan have to due with a nuclear weapon found in the Golan Heights?? He did this very well in his earlier books but it got lost to some degree in his later books. The seemingly irrelevant thread ending up big by the end.

I´ve also read a lot of the Clany books. All in fact up till "The Bear and the Dragon" which was just tedious. I think his earliest books are by far the best. "Red Storm Rising" and "The hunt for the red October" are very good and I really enjoyed them.

I also really liked "Clear and present danger" (the movie sucked). I think that was the first Clancy book I got. I also think there is a hidden gem in the "Cardinal of Kremlin". That book was an excellent spy novel. Havn´t read it for 10 years but I do remember thinking it was one of the best spy novels I had ever read.

To be honest the whole "Ryan saga" became a bit to tedious after a while. He is not really that interesting as a character after a while. The stereotypes in his books also become a bit too much after a while. Always the incompetent official that is one of the bad guys. The badass Latino that is also a loving father. The badass Vietnam veteran that are struggling with his own ghosts. The evil "power" that wants to attack the US in some obscure way... the list goes on.

Clancy's characters are sort of cardboard cutouts. It wasn't as obvious in the early books that were event driven. When he tried to flesh out the characters more, it didn't really work that well. Some other authors have had the same problem.

Some other authors are great at character creation and their work often get better with time.

Bill

I felt that he was one of those guys who had one or two stories that he built
up in his mind over a life time of selling insurance. Good stories but when they
got out that was pretty much it. I never cared much for Jack Ryan his alter-ego.
(Tom Clancy = Jack Ryan, get it?) One of those do anything/everything guys.
And you're right his attempted porn was almost as embarassing as Heinlein...

ORIGINAL: wdolson

Clancy's characters are sort of cardboard cutouts. It wasn't as obvious in the early books that were event driven. When he tried to flesh out the characters more, it didn't really work that well. Some other authors have had the same problem.

Some other authors are great at character creation and their work often get better with time.

Bill

Have to agree on the cardboard cutout thing. The aspect of the early novels that worked was that he did his homework on the military side of things. The characters though have always been laughable stereotypes indeed. At least when you cast the film there's no problem filling it with handsome American men, stunning female intelligence experts, toad-like Russians, a father figure Chief of Staff, etc. It's characters are no more interesting than Biggles and his adversaries. Everytime those guys found a foreign cigarette butt they rightly knew there was trouble afoot, and Clancy's not a lot more subtle.

There are very few authors who actually can come up with more than two or three books before they start to become formulaic. Some do better as their chosen field offers a greater range of possible manipulations but I do generally find I discover an author and at some point am going to start to despair of them......

A big problem has been the publishing house who keep plugging the famous author rather than looking for new talent - the growth of e-publishing may help with this, though it does also, i gather, permit all manner of dross - some book about the shades of a shade comes to mind.

Roger

IIRC, "Jack Ryan" character was property of his ex-wife and he lost rights to use the character after divorce.

According to an article that I read when the "Sum of All Fears" came out, Clancy admitted that he had always intended to write that one first. However, he hit a quandry because he needed find a successful way to introduce the "Jack Ryan" character and in turn that lead to "Hunt" which was begun with a little known incident in the 1970's with a Soviet Naval Vessel named: Storozhevoy where the political commisar locked away the Captian and XO of the ship and any of the crew that didn't want to go along. The Commisar wanted to protest against the current Soviet Leadership. After a 30 day period on the run the ship was stopped by gun boats and Spetnez stormed the ship and the Commisar was executed after a trial a year later. There is a pretty good book about it. After that Clancy admitted he needed to find a way for some ex-Marine to get into the CIA and then become the National Security Council member. Which lead to Patriot Games (which he admitted to also writing as a protest against some of Baltimore Neighbors of Irish background who supported the IRA), Cardinal, Clear and Present and then Sum.
As to Red Storm Rising he admitted and talking to the other author Larry Bond, that it all came from play testing a supplement for the Harpoon Board/Miniatures game. I use to have a link to an AAR which lead to the "Vampires" chapter of the game and it looks just like any of our early war incidents with the KB. Here is a web page with some of the AAR posted, linky.

As to everything after "Sum of All Fears" it is, IMHO, strictly contracted output and then as he became bigger he tried to get out of the "Ryan-verse" first with the R6 novels and then with his non-fiction stuff. The problem as I see it; he allowed a sterotype to be painted of him (see this linky for all the tropes attached to him) and even have a genre of fiction be defined by him, "Techno-Clancy" or something to that effect. Which has lead his name being used by his own entertainment company "Red Storm Entertainment" which really took off with thier R6 games and his name being used by a couple of publishing houses to pump books out based on either the games (see EndWar, HAWXs, Splinter Cell, Politika, SSN) or take an original idea (see Op-Center) and spin a series based on them.

After Bear, I have sworn off Clancy simply because the damn books have gotten to the point of being like trying to carry the full Oxford English Dictionary around or my own tastes have progressed since then. I don't know.

Can we mark this sort of conjecture OT in the title in the future ?

thanks

I liked Cardinal and The hunt for Red October.. the rest I red was.. hmm mediocre his characters seem to turn out a little flat in the end and I dislike this "one hero for all situations" thing that seems to be going on with Clark and Chavez.

@MBF.. hmm yeah giving threads an OT-tag might be helpful most of the times, but here? The title kind of lets you know that it won't be about the game.

ORIGINAL: MBF

Can we mark this sort of conjecture OT in the title in the future ?

thanks

Why??

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

IIRC, "Jack Ryan" character was property of his ex-wife and he lost rights to use the character after divorce.

Not true. The character came up in the divorce, as it should have, but he continued using it. I assume she was compensated in the setlement.