Matrix Games Forums

Can it be done?




















































Oh, and yeah. I have been lurking on this forum for a few weeks now ever since I got the DW collection for my birthday... Sooooooooooooooo, yeah. It's good to come out of the shadows

ORIGINAL: Atridij

Oh, and yeah. I have been lurking on this forum for a few weeks now ever since I got the DW collection for my birthday... Sooooooooooooooo, yeah. It's good to come out of the shadows

Welcome to the forums Atridij[:D] Embrace the light side [;)]

I think that government stats are hardcoded into the game - so no, they can't be changed. I may be wrong though...

You are right Kathaniell. Unless Elliot and Erik give us more mod options with the expansion including these - I would so take it for my WW II mod - it is hardcoded!

ORIGINAL: Kalthaniell

I think that government stats are hardcoded into the game - so no, they can't be changed. I may be wrong though...

Aww... Does that mean I have to mess with dll files or something?

Because I believe that programers behind this game made a boo boo, confusing one of the most protectionist of the free market (and quite far on the right) political stances with bloody communism and state property. And for me as an Economist who fancies a stance like CN IRL this is just one hell of a boo boo to ignore

I hope they give us ability to correct it in a patch or they change it themselves.

A corporate nationalism is NOT a good economy unless it is led by the old Krupp works. It means one company or a cartell owns the whole state. Just imagine your land owes all his money one corporation and it says "either let us decide what you do or we want our money back". It could also mean they made a private army and just couped the goverment, either way a private company rules you. That is no republican dream.

ORIGINAL: Nedrear

A corporate nationalism is NOT a good economy unless it is led by the old Krupp works. It means one company or a cartell owns the whole state. Just imagine your land owes all his money one corporation and it says "either let us decide what you do or we want our money back". It could also mean they made a private army and just couped the goverment, either way a private company rules you. That is no republican dream.

It's sounds that you got your info from Wiki

No without being modest, I just got a brain. And these two are only logical options to achieve a corporate "hive" in a dystopic way. Of course we could just give up our own minds and freedom at the next corner ourselves.

If you want the scientific approach take the official article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporate_nationalism

You might find it "strange" since it breaks a CN down to its basics.

My description follows the ingame debuffs and makes a logical explanation.
And this is WORSE than social facism! Just to make sure you were thinking about Stalinism or Leninism when you said communism right? True communism is neither. They just smeared the name of this utopian kind of goverment. I could call myself a police men wearing their uniform, that does not make me one.

Edit:

Actually the whole CN part reads like a national socialist paper, because the problem of the vague wikipedia article is the many interpretations:

A people focused on the ideal of the group and above the loss of a single person for the goal is CN? Well here are CNs:

Communism, National Socialism, Japanese Imperialism and MANY more. Actually every goverment that does not value personal freedom or individuals over the lives of all the others. Dictatorships aside...

Corporations should work mainly for the national good, rather than the good of their owners?

Seems communism won the CN Award twice. Oh and national socialism too... and lets not forget the former mentioned goverments too again leaving out only the dictatorships by a single group and righteous republics and democracies.

Corporations should be protected from foreign ownership?

Well national socialism scores again! As funny as it seems communism loses here as they are already without ownership of a corporate altogether. The corporation there is not owned by anyone but all the people working there. Further all other ultra national goverments score here too and some forms of dictatorships.

Corporations should (may) be nationalized?

Another score for Communism, National Socialism and all there brethren that does not garant the right of property in disregard to the needs of the people or "group" and all dictatorships are included too.

The state is biased towards corporate interests?

National Socialist? No for once they fail. It is the other way around. Communists? No since there is no real state in true communism. Social Facism scores here again though. And many dictatorships score again too, since focusing on the big corporates to keep their regime running is a standard.


Result:

Damn there are a lot of CNs out there by these scientific rules. Guess there is no real CN goverment considering the different definitions and the many goverments fitting in these categories.

ORIGINAL: Nedrear

No without being modest, I just got a brain. And these two are only logical options to achieve a corporate "hive" in a dystopic way. Of course we could just give up our own minds and freedom at the next corner ourselves.

If you want the scientific approach take the official article: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporate_nationalism

You might find it "strange" since it breaks a CN down to its basics.

My description follows the ingame debuffs and makes a logical explanation.
And this is WORSE than social facism! Just to make sure you were thinking about Stalinism or Leninism when you said communism right? True communism is neither. They just smeared the name of this utopian kind of goverment. I could call myself a police men wearing their uniform, that does not make me one.

Edit:

Actually the whole CN part reads like a national socialist paper, because the problem of the vague wikipedia article is the many interpretations:

A people focused on the ideal of the group and above the loss of a single person for the goal is CN? Well here are CNs:

Communism, National Socialism, Japanese Imperialism and MANY more. Actually every goverment that does not value personal freedom or individuals over the lives of all the others. Dictatorships aside...

Corporations should work mainly for the national good, rather than the good of their owners?

Seems communism won the CN Award twice. Oh and national socialism too... and lets not forget the former mentioned goverments too again leaving out only the dictatorships by a single group and righteous republics and democracies.

Corporations should be protected from foreign ownership?

Well national socialism scores again! As funny as it seems communism loses here as they are already without ownership of a corporate altogether. The corporation there is not owned by anyone but all the people working there. Further all other ultra national goverments score here too and some forms of dictatorships.

Corporations should (may) be nationalized?

Another score for Communism, National Socialism and all there brethren that does not garant the right of property in disregard to the needs of the people or "group" and all dictatorships are included too.

The state is biased towards corporate interests?

National Socialist? No for once they fail. It is the other way around. Communists? No since there is no real state in true communism. Social Facism scores here again though. And many dictatorships score again too, since focusing on the big corporates to keep their regime running is a standard.


Result:

Damn there are a lot of CNs out there by these scientific rules. Guess there is no real CN goverment considering the different definitions and the many goverments fitting in these categories.

Actually you just confirmed to me that all you know about CN came from Wiki

No I did not. I never even looked at the description and analyzed the article only after you mentioned the lexikon. As you can see my analysis of the article proved a CN to not be a goverment in that regard, but a Genus or Family of those in it if you see a goverment as a Species.

Before that I gave you my logical idea of a CN in the game based on the debuffs of it. If you EVER read the linked article - which you either did not or did not understand - my previous insight to the game CN is not in there!

ORIGINAL: Nedrear
Before that I gave you my logical idea of a CN in the game based on the debuffs of it. If you EVER read the linked article - which you either did not or did not understand - my previous insight to the game CN is not in there!

I did throw my eye on the article you posted, gave it a quick study and then got sad that this crappy and inaccurate article was allowed on Wikipedia at all.

And I don't know how I didn't understand CN when my Graduate Paper was "Corporate Nationalism, it's application on the Balkans and eventual economic blow-back from it's introduction" (which will be available for reviewing on EFSA. UNSA. BA in few weeks). Sooooooooooooo yeah, after studying from dozens of sources for my GP which included; works, analysis, reviews and criticism of the CN IRL I believe that I have some basic knowledge about it [8|]

And this thing present in game under the name of CN is more closer to Communism rather than what in real world is called Corporate Nationalism (which in game terms would be most similar to the Caldari State from Eveonline).

Since you studied goverments as you said I take it we talk about real communism here... well let us look at the real communism then instead fo social facism.

What do we know about the ingame CN?

Pro

Free choice of taxes without mali greater than -5 to happiness

Contra

Research breakdown to 20% capacity over time [after 6 years reached!]
Culture limit at 50% WITHOUT bonuses. Therefore it can be increased by ressource or wonder
- 15% colony income
- 30% growth rate
- 15% research speed
- 5 happiness even on low taxes
+ 10% maintenance cost
+ 20% Corruption

Now what can we get out of it:

The happiness tells us it is a society disliked but not hated (always -5 happiness not dependent on pay and luxury)
The research breakdown tells us it is extremely conservative or at least not progressive and monotone.
The reduced birth rate tells us the living conditions are either bad for all or the people deem birth a problem for the natural resources or the death are less so less are needed.
The reduced colony income means a less effective industry or a less lenient goverment.
The increased maintenance either tells of poor quality work or more expensive materials being used. Maybe the pay is better too.
The increased corrupton can hint to a naive goverment believing in people or a really rotten system. Either way the people are not an utopic ideal and egoistic.

Let us combine these points. Which goverment fits these all?

Every military goverment and pure nationalism including nazis are already of the table by the growth rate or the reduced research.
True communism does not fit the corruption since a plebian state would be total democratic and vote everything even the manager of a factory from inside the workers or the chef of the restaurant. These would vote the higher ups and so forth. Furthermore is communism not prone to conservative thoughts or slowing research. A true communist would further enhance the life of all his coworkers in the world. True communism is an utopia though since some people think that way but sadly not all. Too many hawks inside the doves.

Let us have a look at social facism then - the general guess to communism.

Can it decide the pay of the people at will? Yes!
Does it reduce research? Hell no! Though it can not live up to the open research of a wildfire liberal competitive democracy or a technocracy...
Doest it reduce birth rates? No it does not. Stalinism had higher birth rates then the modern Russian state or other modern countries even though the living ualities were described as poor. Sometimes these enhance birth rates instead.
Does it decrease the state income? Yes sometimes. It can miss to jump on financial attractive deals by ideology or inefficient administration.
Does it increase maintenance? Well directed it rather reduces the maintenance cost, but sometimes even the quality.
Does social facism know corruption? Yes definetly. Since it is autocrative the ruler without the proper mindset and everyone in a good position can and most of the times will use his influence.

But overall it does not fit social facism!

I can keep this up, but I guess we both can swoop out some goverments.

I explained my view on the game goverment as a Conglomerate from these like this:

The free taxes describe how much the Conglomerate pays the people to buy their products.
You got no competitive labs, only your companys labs. This lowers overall effectiveness. One research, one result, no critics... bad!
It is a monotone society keeping the people under one rule, one design and one supply.
No free trade and no real impulse hurts the trade income.
It's a bad life in the lower class. Work, pay, eat, work, die... Don't give that to your kids, so less birth!
No competition for the goal and no motivation for the workers reduces their overall effectiveness.
No cheaper products only those of your world company hinders cheaper innovations.
The higher post are typical bribing into positions and shadow deals.

I figured my example fits the stats really well. But communism? No!

Edit:

Guess we can both agree that the ingame goverment by its stats is not a real corporate nationalism but rather a Dystopia opposed to the Utopia of the Securan. That way the main goal of the initial discussion can stay out of the new discussion of the real ingame goverment. Though how to define a CN exactly might be another discussion again altogether.

A real CN in my eyes is a state having a symbiosis with its privat enterprises giving the loyal firms advantages for increasing the wealth and status of their home country by not jumping into others and instead buying their know how to implant in their own. It kinda sounds like the modern China...
Firthermore a CN can either be autocrative or democratic as it is a market ideology in my eyes and not a goverment. Germany got a social market, well had. Seems to fall apart recently. In my eyes CN is something similar. It is an approach to economy and by that influences a nations wealth and working and living conditions of the people but not a goverment per se.