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I know this will be troubling to some and it will probably be stopped but i must give my educated opinion.
he was no hero imo but the most dangerous dicta...em president we've ever had.
secesion was a right in THESE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA that is how it is really meant to be phrased.
hell we seceded from the british empire why would the framers condemn it?
look up the definition of state it basically means a country
Chris Matthews was right lincoln proved secesion was illegal,[but he did'nt add] at the cost of 600.000 lives.
lets try to leave slavery out of the equation was'nt it lincoln that said if he could save the
union by freeing all the slaves he would or if he freed none of them to save the union he would??
he suspended habeous corpus one of the basic unalienable rights we possess as humans!
he instituded conscription which IS unconstitutional but hell its just a piece of paper which is "sometimes wrong"[john kerry]
lets get another thing straight it was not a "rebellion"the southern countries did'nt try to overthrow
the federal gov.they chose to leave it so they were not "rebels"as also were the founders not technicaly rebels.
the southern states lawfully and peacfully left the union and were at peace with the usa till lincoln authorized the reinforcment
and resupply of a usa fort in the port of,at that time foreign country south carolina
i have to go now and continue setting up my first turn in witp so you can start calling me a racist now i will return
but try to remember"facts are dangerous things"can
t remember which founder said that but try to keep responces factual and less emotive plz

ORIGINAL: barkorn45

I know this will be troubling to some and it will probably be stopped but i must give my educated opinion.
he was no hero imo but the most dangerous dicta...em president we've ever had.
secesion was a right in THESE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA that is how it is really meant to be phrased.
hell we seceded from the british empire why would the framers condemn it?
look up the definition of state it basically means a country
Chris Matthews was right lincoln proved secesion was illegal,[but he did'nt add] at the cost of 600.000 lives.
lets try to leave slavery out of the equation was'nt it lincoln that said if he could save the
union by freeing all the slaves he would or if he freed none of them to save the union he would??
he suspended habeous corpus one of the basic unalienable rights we possess as humans!
he instituded conscription which IS unconstitutional but hell its just a piece of paper which is "sometimes wrong"[john kerry]
lets get another thing straight it was not a "rebellion"the southern countries did'nt try to overthrow
the federal gov.they chose to leave it so they were not "rebels"as also were the founders not technicaly rebels.
the southern states lawfully and peacfully left the union and were at peace with the usa till lincoln authorized the reinforcment
and resupply of a usa fort in the port of,at that time foreign country south carolina
i have to go now and continue setting up my first turn in witp so you can start calling me a racist now i will return
but try to remember"facts are dangerous things"can
t remember which founder said that but try to keep responces factual and less emotive plz

I can't agree with you on this one. Abraham Lincoln underwent a tremendous transformation during the tragic years of his presidency. The Emancipation Proclamation repudiated all of Lincoln's previous thoughts about slavery. At different times Lincoln theorized about sending slaves to Liberia and gradual emaciation with compensation for slave owners. As the war progressed the issue of slavery hit the national agenda, and Lincoln realized his decision on the issue had to be one of freedom-here.

Lincoln made several decisions that many consider tyrannical. Suspension of habeas corpus by executive order. Emancipation of the slaves by executive order. Yes these are shocking but as Lincoln said "I had to do something to hold the country together. I took action when I did and gave the PEOPLE time to judge me. They re-elected me, so they approved of my decisions." I concur. Of course today I can't abide a president suspending rights, but Lincoln faced a very unique problem-Civil War and possible dissolution of the great experiment, and all his decisions worked in the end. The country was saved, habeaus corpus reinstated and slavery abolished. If Lincoln had lived I really believe civil rights for black Americans would have arrived much, much sooner.

One thing I loved about the movie Lincoln is the revelation to a huge number of movie goers that the Republican party supported the 13th amendment while the Democrats, to a man, opposed it. Lincoln engaged in a lot of back room deals to get enough Democrats to insure passage of the amendment.

In the end history has judged Lincoln to be the greatest President, and of the the great leaders, of history. I agree.

so do you think that the southern countries did not have the right of secession?
as i posted earlier on another post when patrick henry[to the historically challenged he was a major founding father[an old[well not so old]fuddie duddie white man] was asked at the meeting to ratify the const.by the gov of va
if they could exit the union if they chose to in the future and was told YES but be warned that some "future pres.may invade your COUNTRY and burn your homes"
means nothing that lincoln dispoticaly chose to force the confederation of southern states back into unconstitutionaly rejoining THESE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA
and into slavery to the burgeoning federal gov that lincoln started and conyinues to today.
for he is the father of BIG GOVERNMENT that we little r republicans rail against

we should also be very wary of the term PRECEDENT lincoln did it at a time of so called crisis whats to stop a future lincoln raising the fact that PRECEDENT has been established in future decisions
maybe i'm just an alarmist but shit happens

another thing i find interesting is that lincoln entered the election knowing that the southern states proclaimed that if he won
the election there was the threat of secession but he ran anyway with his views[stated above] on slavery that a later TRANSFORMATION converted him to abolition

Chris Matthews was right lincoln proved secesion was illegal,

[:@] Matthews is never right, secession is not illegal & Lincoln can clean my latrines with a toothpick for the next hundred years.
[:'(] [:D]

"Savior of the Union"………

Suspended the Constitution along with the Bill Of Rights
Launched a military invasion without Congress thumbs up
Interfered with elections using federal troops
Imprisoned newspaper publishers , confiscated opposing vocal newspapers printing presses
Operated extermination camps and declared marshall law in the surrounding city’s
Had elected State representatives illegally imprisoned without charges
Deported a member of Congress after he dared criticized his unconstitutional behavior
Imprisoned Sate legislators to prevent them from voting to secede

Not to mention expended 700,00 lives to laid siege to American city’s full of fellow citizens forcefully imposing his definition of the Republic ..............an american hero

Gents

If this is kept civil, I will - an an "outsider" - be really interested to hear American views on this subject. I know very little about the US Civil War - other than some of the battles - and am keen to understand more about the political situation at the time.

My initial thoughts - based purely on (very) high level knowledge is:

Lincoln was fundamentally a good man, who no doubt had to make some difficult decisions, but was able to keep the USA together - a USA that became the leader of the free world and helped save Europe from itself twice (albeit she was a tad late for the parties [;)]) and from the communist menace.

Are some people saying that they would rather the south have been allowed to leave the union? If so, what would the countries - USA and CSA? look like today. How would history have been affected?

He did what he had to do. It's so easy to condemn him now but we were not around back then. He had some hard decisions to make and he made them. 1861 was not the time to walk back and forth wondering what to do.

For me, I'm glad that he made the decisions that he did. He kept this country united.

Imagine how WW2 would have gone without a united US? Scary thought.

Sarge,

"Savior of the Union"………

Suspended the Constitution along with the Bill Of Rights
Launched a military invasion without Congress thumbs up
Interfered with elections using federal troops
Imprisoned newspaper publishers , confiscated opposing vocal newspapers printing presses
Operated extermination camps and declared marshall law in the surrounding city’s
Had elected State representatives illegally imprisoned without charges
Deported a member of Congress after he dared criticized his unconstitutional behavior
Imprisoned Sate legislators to prevent them from voting to secede

Not to mention expended 700,00 lives to laid siege to American city’s full of fellow citizens forcefully imposing his definition of the Republic ..............an american hero

[&o]

Imagine how WW2 would have gone without a united US? Scary thought.

Maybe there wouldve been no WWII. The Entente might have lost WWI and the South wouldve been a Superpower today with myself in charge! Yeeeeeeeeehaaaaaaaa!!!
[:D]

For me, I'm glad that he made the decisions that he did. He kept this country united.

"United" with Ocommie in charge? Is this supposed to be a good thing??
[:'(]

Would the USA and CSA have fought themselves? What about Mexico? Tons of questions/possibles. Has anyone written a decent book on the subject?

ORIGINAL: SLAAKMAN

Imagine how WW2 would have gone without a united US? Scary thought.

Maybe there wouldve been no WWII. The Entente might have lost WWI and the South wouldve been a Superpower today with myself in charge! Yeeeeeeeeehaaaaaaaa!!!
[:D]

warspite1

Thank God for Abraham Lincoln [;)]

I think if a State or bunch of States wanted to leave the Union they should have been and still should be allowed too.

ORIGINAL: ilovestrategy

He did what he had to do. It's so easy to condemn him now but we were not around back then. He had some hard decisions to make and he made them. 1861 was not the time to walk back and forth wondering what to do.

For me, I'm glad that he made the decisions that he did. He kept this country united.

Amen ilovestrategy. If secession had succeded it is likely that the Confederacy would have broken up too. The Jeferson governments decisions(taxes and the draft, among others) made many southerners angry, with threats of secession from the Confederacy. America would have ended up a Balkanized area. I can't imagine that my fellow Matrix members really would prefer that this great nation, warts and all, would have broken apart.

Remember, America is a force for good. Churchill got it right when he said "The United States invariably does the right thing, after having exhausted every other alternative."

ORIGINAL: wodin

I think if a State or bunch of States wanted to leave the Union they should have been and still should be allowed too.

Does that go for Ireland and Scotland too?

ORIGINAL: Dave Briggs

ORIGINAL: wodin

I think if a State or bunch of States wanted to leave the Union they should have been and still should be allowed too.

Does that go for Ireland and Scotland too?

warspite1

Yes exactly - Southern Ireland has gone and Scotland gets to vote soon.

ORIGINAL: Dave Briggs

ORIGINAL: wodin

I think if a State or bunch of States wanted to leave the Union they should have been and still should be allowed too.

Does that go for Ireland and Scotland too?

Yes and I don't blame them..unlike Americans and patriotism, English have very little. Alot think the place is a sh1thole and would get out at the first opportunity.

My 2 cents: Lincoln was a Bum!

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Gents

If this is kept civil, I will - an an "outsider" - be really interested to hear American views on this subject. I know very little about the US Civil War - other than some of the battles - and am keen to understand more about the political situation at the time.

My initial thoughts - based purely on (very) high level knowledge is:

Lincoln was fundamentally a good man, who no doubt had to make some difficult decisions, but was able to keep the USA together - a USA that became the leader of the free world and helped save Europe from itself twice (albeit she was a tad late for the parties [;)]) and from the communist menace.

Are some people saying that they would rather the south have been allowed to leave the union? If so, what would the countries - USA and CSA? look like today. How would history have been affected?

warspite1

Anyone have a view re the questions I raised please?