Matrix Games Forums

Hiya,


I repeatedly encountered the problem that small mixed TFs will run out of fuel while on patrol missions. In particular this occurs with ASW TFs near ports. F.e. I had a AWS TF consisting of one DD and 2 PCs, and they ran out of fuel 5 hexes outsider their home port (PH). Seems to me that the game has problems calculating transferrable fuel at sea, as 2 ships still had some fuel left, and one running empty.

Anyone else who has seen this?

ORIGINAL: margeorg

Hiya,


I repeatedly encountered the problem that small mixed TFs will run out of fuel while on patrol missions. In particular this occurs with ASW TFs near ports. F.e. I had a AWS TF consisting of one DD and 2 PCs, and they ran out of fuel 5 hexes outsider their home port (PH). Seems to me that the game has problems calculating transferrable fuel at sea, as 2 ships still had some fuel left, and one running empty.

Anyone else who has seen this?

This is fairly common. Mixing ship endurance in ASW TF's on patrol zones is a bad idea. I think in RL there were more issues with ships running out of fuel than is commonly noted. Admiral Gallery on his book on the capture of U-505 had to inform his commanders that he did not have the fuel to make it back to base.

TBH i've never seen this happen, even w/ severely mixed ship-types. OTOH 90% of my ASW patrol TFs have their 3rd PZ-hex set to their home-port, w/ Full Refuel. query to the OP - are your PZ hexes set to Remain on Station for 0 days? if so, they will burn through their fuel v. fast, better IMO to set RoS to 1 day in each hex.

what does get up my nose, though, is that quite often my PZ ASW TFs will refuse to continue their PZ circuit after refueling at their 3rd hex - they stay at their base, despite having a valid patrol route, until i notice their inactivity. i have to X out their patrol route & re-define it, before they'll return to their duty. this only happens to my PZ ASW TFs, my PZ submarines always return to their PZ after they RTB for refuel/re-arm.

and while we're on the subject, i think it would be groovy if a PZ submarine TF would auto-disband at its base if it was a) due to upgrade & b) its upgrade was set to Yes.

ORIGINAL: jmalter

TBH i've never seen this happen, even w/ severely mixed ship-types. OTOH 90% of my ASW patrol TFs have their 3rd PZ-hex set to their home-port, w/ Full Refuel. query to the OP - are your PZ hexes set to Remain on Station for 0 days? if so, they will burn through their fuel v. fast, better IMO to set RoS to 1 day in each hex.

what does get up my nose, though, is that quite often my PZ ASW TFs will refuse to continue their PZ circuit after refueling at their 3rd hex - they stay at their base, despite having a valid patrol route, until i notice their inactivity. i have to X out their patrol route & re-define it, before they'll return to their duty. this only happens to my PZ ASW TFs, my PZ submarines always return to their PZ after they RTB for refuel/re-arm.

Hello,

my TFs are set for 3 PZ hexes at sea, linger 0 days, no refuel at patrol hexes. The patrol zone are a few hexes wide. Fuel burn is not the issue, it´s the problem that they will stay out until being completely empty, instead of refueling at their home port, where plenty of fuel is available. This doesn´t occur every time, but every 10th or 20th occurance, and of course leads to damage to the ships, and the necessity to intervene manually.

The OP is asking us to guess the exact conditions which apply. I can guess a couple of conditions which would fully explain these results but I'm not prepared to waste time guessing when the relevant screenshots, or in their absence complete details, can be provided.

Alfred

Hiya Alfred et al ...


will provide screenshots, and/or savegame if needed. Just wanted to ask generally first if this problem (as a general one) is known perhaps. As it seems to be something more specific, I´ll provide the needed info in a few hours (posting this from work).

I can think of only one possibility of this:

When whole TF have enough fuel, but there are some ships with large bunkerage, so they could in theory give up some of their fuel to smaller vessels, but they are already "in red", so they can not transfer anything.


If your whole TF is empty, then you have a problem, but if TF shows, that it have enough movement, you have to change TF composition, as there is no cure for this.

ORIGINAL: inqistor

I can think of only one possibility of this:

When whole TF have enough fuel, but there are some ships with large bunkerage, so they could in theory give up some of their fuel to smaller vessels, but they are already "in red", so they can not transfer anything.


If your whole TF is empty, then you have a problem, but if TF shows, that it have enough movement, you have to change TF composition, as there is no cure for this.

Yeah,

seems this is the case. I didn´t see this yet with TFs formed with ships from the same class (i.e., identical fuel burn rate) yet.

Alfred: Unfortunately a few turns have passed since I posted, and therefore I cannot provide screenshots - sorry. But it seems the general case has been explained. Should the problem arise again I will then secure the needed details.

Margeorg,

IIRC there was a post earlier about this and the answer was it had to do with the remaining fuel would not be transferred if the levels put the supplying ship below either tactical or minimum levels.

One workaround is to have a fueled AK sitting in port and create a cargo TF with it. You then change your ASW TF to cargo as well, merge the TFs and the following turn your depleted ships will have drawn enough fuel from the AK to get home. Not perfect - but it works for me.

Also was your PZ exceeding your range? You probably already know this, but the top left of the TF screen shows the range of the TF and the direct range to the PZ is in parenthesis.

When you make your PZ's I always leave 20% range for "combat" since the reaction range is usually 1-2 hexes - the TF burns more fuel reacting (maximum speed) than the range is calculating (mission or cruise). I rarely have a ASW TF run out of fuel doing it this way.

And yes - I too have "stuck" TF's in port that should be going back out to sea, I can live with looking at my Patrol TF list each turn, and check on all the in-port TF's for being "stuck" as a minor inconvienence for this great game [;)]

moore4807, i think you could just task your AK to Meet & Refuel the patrolling TF, no need to merge. in fact, you could just set it to Follow at 0-hex range, & the Patrol would auto-suck fuel from it as needed, at a cost of ~250 ops points each time.