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I'm considering getting back to operational level wargames. In that front my most played favourite game was Battle Isle 3. I understand Panzer General serie, Advanced Strategic Command, and Panzer Corps have much in common with Battle Isle serie... but all of those are bit too abstract and simplified: closer to Chess than serious simulation of war. I've played bit of Panzer Corps demo and read some of the manual, and I really like about player having core force throughout the campaign with upgrade options. So now I'm looking for more realistic game on the same scale: map sizes less than 100 hexes per side with typically only tens of units per side. Otherwise I can welcome complex detailed information if game manual explains it all thoroughly. Do you have recommendations?

I'd suggest CmdOps if you aren't totally wedded to turn-based and hexes. It is accessible, yet deep and complex, with an emphasis on soft factors (command, morale, fatigue, supply, terrain and manoeuvre) rather than exclusively on equipment and 'troop quality'... you can easily 'throw away' a heavy tank Bn with TigerII by running them out of fuel deep behind enemy lines, or by getting them embroiled in a knife fight, with enemy infantry and tanks.

Larger scenarios apart from having a longer duration, are similar in complexity to smaller ones ~ despite the much larger unit count, as units follow 'plans' made by the player or AI, rather than each being moved manually each turn. Tasks to perform within the game tend to be forward planning, "real-time" analysis of intel picture as it changes and actions/reactions in response to opportunity/threats ~ often a 'good' plan will need little direct manipulation, and the tension comes from watching for the unwelcome/unexpected ~ other times a wholescale cancellation and replanning of the effort is needed to respond to the AI's threatening posture, or a 'bonus' opportunity.

There is a demo, and lots of helpful people in the subforum to answer questions. The manual explains most things, and there was a strategy guide for earlier versions (AA:HTTR, rather than CmdOps:HTTR, but most is still valid).

It is closer to a 'real' command experience than most titles that have been available, and more accessible than the few that have tried to break the same ground ~ plus the AI is fairly competent.

Unity of Command

You can get a demo from here http://unityofcommand.net/

ORIGINAL: Wolfe

Unity of Command

I watched video. To me it seems to go to same category with Panzer General, Panzer Corps, and the rest.

I really want hexes and turns for now. And mixed combined arms formation, not tank destroyer battalions (referring to first edition of US Tank Destroyer Doctrine and aforementioned games here). I'm considering The Operational Art of War and Korsun Pocket series. What are differences between those two series, what else are there, and which one would be right for me?

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If there is a game where elite infantry platoon can slip through enemy trench line unnoticed and destroy supply depot (or just the AA weapons in order to make the job easier for bombers) in order to deny ammunition from defending enemy forces, tell me about it. To my understanding Finnish Defense Force and Red Army did that kind of thing quite often.

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Scratch over Decisive Battles games (Korsun Pocket, Battles in Normandy, Battles in Italy). Way too many hexes and units in those.

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Scratch over Decisive Battles games (Korsun Pocket, Battles in Normandy, Battles in Italy). Way too many hexes and units in those.

You ain't just a little bit picky are you? You don't want beer & pretzels and you don't want hexes and lots of units. You have shrunk your choices down to minimal or none at best.

John tillers campaign series, small, med., and large scenarios. East front, west front, and the pacific all in one package.pick the size of your command in the campaign.

Decisive Campaigns. TOAW 3 as their are loads of scenarios to suit. Or one of John Tillers games.

The platoon thing your asking about..that seems like a game you want that has different scales..which doesn't exist as far as I know, a platoon scale game with an operational one. Good idea though.

ORIGINAL: Rtwfreak

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Scratch over Decisive Battles games (Korsun Pocket, Battles in Normandy, Battles in Italy). Way too many hexes and units in those.

You ain't just a little bit picky are you? You don't want beer & pretzels and you don't want hexes and lots of units. You have shrunk your choices down to minimal or none at best.

I'll rephrase: I don't want any monster game where map is whole frakkin' Western Front, Eastern Front, or Pacific Ocean. I want game where map is restricted only to Belgium, Karelia, or Guadalcanal. At that scale I desire for more realism, complexity and depth than what is in Panzer General and Panzer Corps series. What games deliver?

As I said Decisive Campaigns..either game.

How about War in the East with the Don to Danube expansion. Not for its huge campaign game but for the smaller operational scenarios of which (including the expansion) there are c20 of varying sizes and lengths to choose from.

Command Ops

I would second this, I'm pretty noobish at this scale of game and a bit scared of the main campaign, but I found the "Road to..." scenarios to be manageable and there are even smaller scenarios as well.

ORIGINAL: Wolfe

How about War in the East with the Don to Danube expansion. Not for its huge campaign game but for the smaller operational scenarios of which (including the expansion) there are c20 of varying sizes and lengths to choose from.

ORIGINAL: wodin

As I said Decisive Campaigns..either game.

Did you miss the part where he said to "scratch" those games?

Decisive Battles were scratched. Althought they still should fit into the criteria as they are not whole front games, just battles.

cheers

ORIGINAL: Rtwfreak

ORIGINAL: wodin

As I said Decisive Campaigns..either game.

Did you miss the part where he said to "scratch" those games?

As said above..different games mate.

I have gone through some info and screenshots about some of the games. WITE seems to have the kind of detail I desire, and sizes of some scenario maps seem manageable even for me. Still could go little over my head.

TOAW3 seems to cover very broad area of wars and regions from American Civil War to Desert Storm and very much in between. I have read some reviews (years ago), and I remember game is very much scalable. How much exactly (min & max scales)?

I'm not sure about John Tiller's Campaign Serie... Game counters are platoons, I get that much. But more info please.

Decisive Campaigns looks like least realistic of the lot. Game action cards? No thanks! If I want do gas attack, I want do it with weapons, not with game card [:-]
Or have I misunderstood something in here...?

Finally: some comparisons between the games. Like how Operation Barbarossa differs between WITE, TOAW3, Decisive Campaigns: Case Blue, and JTCS. How much time does it take in a given game to play average game turn of average sized scenario? How thick are the manuals, and how thoroughly they explain the game?

DC card system adds loads to the game..seriously my favourite aspect..it's manly about giving bonus to units if and when needed.

John Tillers games game counters are coys upto regiments not platoons.

Your best going to each forum to ask your questions to be honest.

As Wodin said, I think the best way for you to compare the games on your shortlist is to visit the individual forums, read some of the AARs and ask questions if needed.

One question more: which games come with printed manual?

ORIGINAL: Matti Kuokkanen

One question more: which games come with printed manual?

Is this relevant these days? Most games here are electronic downloads or a premium for a CD/DVD and (sometimes (?)) paper materials. Either way they both come with pdf files- electronic medium, but if you really want paper, you can of course print them.