Matrix Games Forums

Posted: **Wed May 01, 2013 1:58 am**

Recently in a PBEM game I was checking the reports and looked at the details of Sea Battle Central Atlantic. (Lightening War scenario). Sorry I don't know how to do the screen shots, but the summation is that (leaving out misses) -
HMS Aurora hits U-12(Germany)
HMS Repulse hits U-12(Germany)
HMS Diomede hits U-12(Germany)
Turn completed

HMS Repulse hits U-12(Germany)
Turn completed
Sea battle ends

Damaged ships:
U-12(Germany) 1 HP
What!? A Uboat is hit 4 times by Brit CA's and is still alive to fight another day? Am I missing something? Is the Reports section a whimsical fairy tale where FOW allows for false reports of unconfirmed hits? At this scale thet seem a bit far fetched.
While I am on the subject, although this could just be this scenario, to my surprise Gibraltar was attacked by land through Spain by German Infantry Corps, and though I've checked the Reports - Events on that turn and on each turn since, there has never been a single word of Spain joining the Axis. Romania, Bulgaria, and Hungary are all mentioned. I looked at Brit DP's and clicked Madrid, and the Allies are now at war with Spain. Is this a usual way to find out a country joined an alliance? Also, again I am sure this is just the scenario, but 8 SMP's is not enough to strategic deploy a 4-2 Tac air unit? These are all fixable things if playing the AI by simple mods, but when in the heat of a normal PBEM game (especially against an extremely tough opponent), they make an already difficult Allied position almost unplayable.
I have been successful getting convoys through the med for the last 4 or 5 turns though, by sending 2 or more convoys to each destination. And I have contested the Med vs the Italians almost every turn (at a cost though), and have sunk 4 Italian ships in the last 5 or so turns.
So does anyone know if the Reports section shows the actual events happening, or just a possible things happening in the game???

Posted: **Wed May 01, 2013 8:32 am**

ORIGINAL: baloo77
Damaged ships:
U-12(Germany) 1 HP
What!? A Uboat is hit 4 times by Brit CA's and is still alive to fight another day? Am I missing something? Is the Reports section a whimsical fairy tale where FOW allows for false reports of unconfirmed hits? At this scale thet seem a bit far fetched.

Not trying to comment on this particular event, as to decide how historic/accurate the game is depends on the overall effect throughout the game. However, I think that it is intended that naval units are composed of Groups, these are normally named for one ship (e.g. BB - Tirpitz), but actually represent about 5 vessels, the Tirpitz and a destroyer escort), same for a CA like HMS Aurora + destroyers. The Groups are put together to make Fleets and it would be the DD escorts, and/or CV air strikes attacking the subs.

The way damage is taken is abstracted, if a Group drops to 80% does that mean 1 destroyer has been sunk, or several ships in the group have been damaged, but all still afloat, either way, in strategic terms the Group has lost some fighting power. If the Group is destroyed then all ships are lost, or unable to fight.

I tend to rename all sub groups as flotillas, rather than keep a single boat name, so when a sub group takes a hit, is that 1 boat sunk out of the group, or several boats damaged, can the damaged boats fight on after repairs at sea in a week of fighting ? The game is not tactical, it's represents just over 7 days of combat (4 turns a month) and you are looking at a weekly report summary in a High Command strategic HQ, not day-to-day events.

That's the way I get into the feel of the naval game, whether the combat results are accurate is another issue. [:)]

Posted: **Wed May 01, 2013 8:56 am**

ORIGINAL: baloo7777
While I am on the subject, although this could just be this scenario, to my surprise Gibraltar was attacked by land through Spain by German Infantry Corps, and though I've checked the Reports - Events on that turn and on each turn since, there has never been a single word of Spain joining the Axis. Romania, Bulgaria, and Hungary are all mentioned. I looked at Brit DP's and clicked Madrid, and the Allies are now at war with Spain. Is this a usual way to find out a country joined an alliance?

Not sure about Spain, if you are at war with someone, you would expect some fan-fare, event warning, maybe a WAR!!!! screen, however, the US only found that it was at war with Japan when the bombs started to fall, same for many other nations, Poland, Finland, Holland, Belgium, etc., etc., so I am not sure on this one.

I do like the unpredictably of the game, in other titles you get rules (have to place X number of strength points on the East Front to represent that Stalin may attack), with TOF you have to try and make provision yourself for whatever might happen, just as the real leaders had to do. Hindsight is a powerful tool in games that stick too rigidly to the historical record, you know the script and can prepare, Spain would never attack the Allies without warning ???? [:)]

Posted: **Wed May 01, 2013 9:01 am**

ORIGINAL: baloo7777
Also, again I am sure this is just the scenario, but 8 SMP's is not enough to strategic deploy a 4-2 Tac air unit? These are all fixable things if playing the AI by simple mods, but when in the heat of a normal PBEM game (especially against an extremely tough opponent), they make an already difficult Allied position almost unplayable.
I have been successful getting convoys through the med for the last 4 or 5 turns though, by sending 2 or more convoys to each destination. And I have contested the Med vs the Italians almost every turn (at a cost though), and have sunk 4 Italian ships in the last 5 or so turns.
So does anyone know if the Reports section shows the actual events happening, or just a possible things happening in the game???

AFAIK the reports are correct, when playing the turn recon may show enemy fleets, but not always all that is there. The combat and loss reports show much more of the composition of enemy fleets, naming the groups involved. I think that if it is in the reports, then it has happened in the game.

Posted: **Wed May 01, 2013 11:24 am**

Thanks Rasp!
A little perspective goes a long way!!! I sound like I'm complaining, but I do like this game immensely. And the surprise elements, along with the need to prepare your defenses for many alternatives, give the game/scenario PvP a real uncertainty that I absolutely love when I think about it. I still beleive the games/scenarios are weighted towards the Axis though. But the challenge against an Axis opponent that is not just competent, but innovative and tenacious, makes for an exciting game.

Posted: **Wed May 01, 2013 11:51 am**

ORIGINAL: baloo7777
Thanks Rasp!
A little perspective goes a long way!!! I sound like I'm complaining, but I do like this game immensely. And the surprise elements, along with the need to prepare your defenses for many alternatives, give the game/scenario PvP a real uncertainty that I absolutely love when I think about it. I still beleive the games/scenarios are weighted towards the Axis though. But the challenge against an Axis opponent that is not just competent, but innovative and tenacious, makes for an exciting game.

None of this is to gloss over some of the real problems in the naval aspects of the game, convoy routeing, lack of surface action, etc., so there are things to complain about. The more I got into the role that the game provides for the player, the more I liked it.

Setting up the fleets is important, putting transports groups actually in the same fleet with BB groups, CV groups and some CA groups, with commanders, to get the maximum support against various threats, or concentrating bombardment strength in a single fleet, to get the best punch out of your one shot at each hex per turn. Normal Windows conventions apply, CTRL/click, or SHIFT click, allows you to select several groups at the same time and move them together when reorganising fleets, to speed the task.

Timing the dispatch of fleets to make the best use of the 10 weeks at sea regular fleets have, before their performance starts to drop. Bring fleets together and re-allocating the groups between fleets as the strategy changes, whilst keeping the time at sea in mind for each group, so you don't run out of efficiency before the job is done.

The 'Unit Management' screen is very useful and allows you to quickly scan all naval groups to see their status, click the title box at the top of each column to reorganise the list (BBs at the top, or CAs etc. list by fleets, list by sea zones), you can shuffle all the lists in all the columns of these info screens, to see how your different units are doing. This works for ground units also, so for example, I number all coast defence divisions as 900s, I can shuffle the list in name, or unit number order, to pick out the units I want (ascending/descending order).

You can shuffle all the columns (name, type, etc.) in the Unit Management and Fleets screens. You can organise the lists to get all units with commanders on the top, high supply, low supply, highest APs lowest APs, etc., it's a very powerful and useful tool.

Reading the reports to get that additional information, seeing which sea zones your subs are finding convoys and closing in on those areas. There is a lot of strategy to be had out of the naval game, which some will miss if they just write it off. [:)]

Posted: **Wed May 01, 2013 11:24 pm**

ORIGINAL: baloo7777

Recently in a PBEM game I was checking the reports and looked at the details of Sea Battle Central Atlantic. (Lightening War scenario). Sorry I don't know how to do the screen shots, but the summation is that (leaving out misses) -
HMS Aurora hits U-12(Germany)
HMS Repulse hits U-12(Germany)
HMS Diomede hits U-12(Germany)
Turn completed

HMS Repulse hits U-12(Germany)
Turn completed
Sea battle ends

Damaged ships:
U-12(Germany) 1 HP
What!? A Uboat is hit 4 times by Brit CA's and is still alive to fight another day? Am I missing something? Is the Reports section a whimsical fairy tale where FOW allows for false reports of unconfirmed hits? At this scale thet seem a bit far fetched.
While I am on the subject, although this could just be this scenario, to my surprise Gibraltar was attacked by land through Spain by German Infantry Corps, and though I've checked the Reports - Events on that turn and on each turn since, there has never been a single word of Spain joining the Axis. Romania, Bulgaria, and Hungary are all mentioned. I looked at Brit DP's and clicked Madrid, and the Allies are now at war with Spain. Is this a usual way to find out a country joined an alliance? Also, again I am sure this is just the scenario, but 8 SMP's is not enough to strategic deploy a 4-2 Tac air unit? These are all fixable things if playing the AI by simple mods, but when in the heat of a normal PBEM game (especially against an extremely tough opponent), they make an already difficult Allied position almost unplayable.
I have been successful getting convoys through the med for the last 4 or 5 turns though, by sending 2 or more convoys to each destination. And I have contested the Med vs the Italians almost every turn (at a cost though), and have sunk 4 Italian ships in the last 5 or so turns.
So does anyone know if the Reports section shows the actual events happening, or just a possible things happening in the game???

hile I am on the subject, although this could just be this scenario, to my surprise Gibraltar was attacked by land through Spain by German Infantry Corps, and though I've checked the Reports - Events on t

That sub group should be sunk.

Your partner may have more than one sub named U-12.

Each group represents a number of ships, for example U-12 is a group of subs, anywhere from 1 to 4.

A Cruiser group is the main cruiser plus destroyers, usually 4.

Posted: **Thu May 02, 2013 1:05 am**

That sub group should be sunk.

Your partner may have more than one sub named U-12.

Wow! What a brilliant way to spread disinformation...having two (or more) groups with the same name. [X(]
Never saw that coming. My opponent has been kicking my butt anyhow...so no surprise if he figured this out!

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