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For anyone with a mod that extends past the end of 1945 (me! me!)...

I've found some interesting information on French Forces to be sent to the Pacific in October, 1945. For full details: http://www.au.af.mil/au/awc/awcgate/arm ... ackson.pdf

Some highlights:

"The second track in French plans was the French Far East Expeditionary Corps. The French Far East Expeditionary Corps was designed to fight a conventional battle against the Japanese Army, but under one of two scenarios: either as part of a reconquest of Indochina or, to placate American desires, as part of a follow-on wave of assault troops in the upcoming invasion of Japan’s home islands."

The 5th Colonial Regiment was very interesting: "Another element of this first French track was the Light Intervention Corps, later renamed the 5th Colonial Infantry Regiment. This unit was raised in North Africa and then staged in India, and was the first French unit to return to Indochina when the British transported them to Saigon. It was a unique unit organized with five subelements: two parachute infantry companies organized similarly to American organizations of the time, two light commandos organized similarly to British Commando Troops of the time, and a Special Air Service Battalion organized like a similar British unit of the time. This last unit, composed of naval infantrymen who had been given parachute and commando training, underwent several name changes and is most frequently known as Commando Ponchardier since there was a desire to not be confused with a parachute unit later deployed to Indochina--the 1st Special Air Service Parachute Shock Battalion. At any rate, the 5th Colonial Infantry Regiment was employed as the advance guard of the French Far East Expeditionary Corps in its reoccupation of Indochina."

A very interesting article.

Hi Don,

Have been doing a lot of work with Service Historique de Defense on another project (actually Francois Charton has been doing the grunt work, for which he cannot be thanked enough). Have some nice names and contacts that don’t seem to mind my atrocious French.

Can help find things in the French Ministry of Defense archives if you get stuck somewhere.

Ciao. John

Thanks John.

Anything you might have on the units in the jpg above would be helpful.

All I have is google droppings to fill out the sub-unit names. And nothing on TOEs (except for 5th Colonial Regiment).

Google (and google translate) did give a good list of sub-units of 2nd Armored, but I'm assuming their TOEs were just like contemporary US units. I know they had US equipment.

I have even less on the other units: 3rd and 9th Colonial Divisions, Far East and Far East Naval Brigades.

Also love to have proper unit names - that will fit in 20 characters!

ORIGINAL: Symon

Hi Don,

Have been doing a lot of work with Service Historique de Defense on another project (actually Francois Charton has been doing the grunt work, for which he cannot be thanked enough). Have some nice names and contacts that don’t seem to mind my atrocious French.

Can help find things in the French Ministry of Defense archives if you get stuck somewhere.

Ciao. John

Sub-units for the 3rd and 9th in January 45 (for the German Nordwind offensive):

3e Division d'infanterie Algerienne: 3e and 7e Regiments de Tirailleurs Algerienne(RTA), 4e Regiment de Tirailleurs Tunisiens(RTT), 67e Regiment de Artillerie d'Afrique(RAA).

9e Division d'infanterie Coloniale: 4e, 6e and 13e Regiments de Tirailleurs Sénégalais(RTS), Regiment d'Artillerie Colonial du Maroc(RAMC)

Both divisions followed the standard US pattern, but were equipped in a very slipshod manner, due to logistical problems.

Source: Osprey Campaign 223 - Operation Nordwind 1945

Thanks

Google and I believe the 7th Algerian was replaced by the 47th (French?) Infantry and all three Senegalese Regiments were replaced by (white) Colonial Regiments. Officially because the African soldiers were less able to endure cold weather. Google hints of racial issues as the real reason.

Also chasing something named "The Colonial Cavalry Regiment" as being in the 9th at some time. Possibly a recon unit??

ORIGINAL: Terminus

Sub-units for the 3rd and 9th in January 45 (for the German Nordwind offensive):

3e Division d'infanterie Algerienne: 3e and 7e Regiments de Tirailleurs Algerienne(RTA), 4e Regiment de Tirailleurs Tunisiens(RTT), 67e Regiment de Artillerie d'Afrique(RAA).

9e Division d'infanterie Coloniale: 4e, 6e and 13e Regiments de Tirailleurs Sénégalais(RTS), Regiment d'Artillerie Colonial du Maroc(RAMC)

Both divisions followed the standard US pattern, but were equipped in a very slipshod manner, due to logistical problems.

Source: Osprey Campaign 223 - Operation Nordwind 1945

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen
Thanks John.

Anything you might have on the units in the jpg above would be helpful.

Hi Don.

The French are pretty particular about things. They don't research the archives themselves, they expect you to do that. So they won't respond to general questions. But if you have a specific question about a specific unit/period, it's possible to get a "reglement" from the archives, but don't expect someone to do it for you. Know what you want, they are very helpful. Just want some info, they are like, zut, wtf?

Just fyi. John

No worries. Google probably gives me enough. TOE I'll assume to be same-as US.

Besides the French names tend to be longer than their English equivalents. That 20-character limit is a bear. Little things like "Coloniale" instead of "Colonial" seem to always cause truncation.

Speaking of French, my wife's cousin does ancestral research as a hobby. She traced my mother's mother all the way to Normandy to a brother of William the Conqueror. Only line she could trace for more than a few generations. Apparently only the records of the gentry survive for very long. Anyway, feel free to refer to me as "Lord Don".

ORIGINAL: Symon

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen
Thanks John.

Anything you might have on the units in the jpg above would be helpful.

Hi Don.

The French are pretty particular about things. They don't research the archives themselves, they expect you to do that. So they won't respond to general questions. But if you have a specific question about a specific unit/period, it's possible to get a "reglement" from the archives, but don't expect someone to do it for you. Know what you want, they are very helpful. Just want some info, they are like, zut, wtf?

Just fyi. John

Aha!

Thanks John, you gave me an idea

http://translate.google.com/translate?s ... _coloniale


(edit)

Double Aha!!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R%C3%A9gi ... _de_marine


Anyone speak French??






And does anyone know the translation of the terms:

2 REI (apparently an infantry unit of regimental size. Other two units in 3rd Coloniale Division are "RIC" which is Colonial Infantry Regiment).

13 DBLE. A Marine unit possibly of regimental size.

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen


Thanks

Google and I believe the 7th Algerian was replaced by the 47th (French?) Infantry and all three Senegalese Regiments were replaced by (white) Colonial Regiments. Officially because the African soldiers were less able to endure cold weather. Google hints of racial issues as the real reason.

Also chasing something named "The Colonial Cavalry Regiment" as being in the 9th at some time. Possibly a recon unit??

ORIGINAL: Terminus

Sub-units for the 3rd and 9th in January 45 (for the German Nordwind offensive):

3e Division d'infanterie Algerienne: 3e and 7e Regiments de Tirailleurs Algerienne(RTA), 4e Regiment de Tirailleurs Tunisiens(RTT), 67e Regiment de Artillerie d'Afrique(RAA).

9e Division d'infanterie Coloniale: 4e, 6e and 13e Regiments de Tirailleurs Sénégalais(RTS), Regiment d'Artillerie Colonial du Maroc(RAMC)

Both divisions followed the standard US pattern, but were equipped in a very slipshod manner, due to logistical problems.

Source: Osprey Campaign 223 - Operation Nordwind 1945

At the time there was an ongoing process called "blanchisement" ("whitening"), which involved exchanging colonial troops for former members of the FFI (French resistance). It was entirely political, and detested by field commanders who appreciated the toughness of their colonial troops and didn't want undisciplined ex-partisans in their units.

Hi,

13 DBLE 13th Demi-Brigade de Legion Etranger http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/13th_Demi- ... ign_Legion

2 REI 2e Régiment étranger d'Infanterie http://2rei.legion-etrangere.com/ and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2nd_Foreig ... y_Regiment

The text in the box would be fairly close to this (I'm not that good at French unfortunately):

The Far East Naval Brigade

Initially constituted (correct English word?) at Arcachon, it arrived in several convoys to Indochina. It consisted of:

Company Merlet, named according to the "Vessel" Lieutenant (I guess naval lieutenant is a better translation) in command
Company Dalet, after the commanding officer
The staff of naval Captain Kilian, commander of the BMEO
The armoured regiment of Naval Fusiliers, Shock amphibious unit for landings (not exactly sure about this part)
Marine signal company
Administrative centre of the brigade (CABEO)
1st River Flotilla of Naval Fusiliers
2nd River Flotilla of Naval Fusiliers

The last two units, created by the initiative of Frigate Captain Jaubert, used LCAs, LCVPs, LCIs, LCMs, "Barge battleships" (armoured barges is probably better http://www.netmarine.net/forces/operati ... haland.htm), armed junks, Japanese patrol boats and LCIs and launches

Repair company
Other attached adminstrative elements of the BMEO:
- The "traditional squadron" (Honor guard?) of the 1st Regiment of the Naval Fusiliers, the personal guard of the High Commissioner
- The Naval Parachute Commandos from SASB 1
- 2 LST, 8 LCI, 2 LCT and several others, bought later


I hope that helps you a little bit.

/BPRE

Indeed it does. Thanks a lot.

Hi Don,

A few explanations about some of the French terms you might see...

Anything labelled "colonial" refers to marine troops. Those were originally infantry units belonging to the navy (marine in French). They were created by Richelieu, as "troupes de marine" to form boarding parties aboard ships of the line, and expanded over time to serve as garrisons in colonies. They can be recognized by the anchors on their insignia.

In 1900, as there was less need for boarding parties on ships of the line, they changed their name from "troupes de marines" to "troupes coloniales" (or armée coloniale), and were attached to the ministry of colonies. In 1958, as there were less colonies to defend, they were renamed back as "troupes de marine", but still belong to the army (and they still refer to themselves as "la colo").

As a rule, units that have "colonial" in their name (infanterie coloniale, artillerie coloniale) are metropolitan (ie white conscript) outfits. Local units would be named "tirailleurs" and the country of origin : tirailleurs sénégalais, tirailleurs tonkinois, tirailleurs malgaches... There were, to my understanding, no cavalry regiments in the troupes coloniales, so your "colonial cavalry regiment" sounds a bit weird. I suspect those might be Chasseurs d'Afrique, or some light infantry unit (Bat' d'Af or so), reorganised as a recon element.


However, the "troupes colonials" are only part of the pciture. Units defending North Africa were not "troupes coloniales" but formed the Armée d'Afrique. As the colonials, they had european and local units, and had cavalry. European units included the Zouaves and Bataillons d'Afrique (infantry and light infantry), Chasseurs d'Afrique (cavalry), and the Foreign Legion (infantry, but foreign nationals). Whenever you see "Etranger" in the name of a unit, it means opened to foreign nationals, ie FFL (note that the Legion Etrangere belongs to Armée d'Afrique). Local infantry were tirailleurs and goumiers, cavalry was known as spahis.

So, in your post above, the BMEO, with the word Marine all around, is most certainly a unit from the armée coloniale (note the terms fusillier marin and transmission de marine). The REI and DBLE are FFL units, which belong to the Armée d'Afrique. Lieutenant de vaisseau is just the navy term for captain, OF-2 in NATO-speak. Capitaine de vaisseau (the head of BMEO) is OF-5, and the BMEO is a regiment-sized unit.

DBLE is demi brigade de légion étrangère. The term demi-brigade was used to replace the name "regiment" in the revolutionary era. It was then used to denote a smaller unit than a regiment. A regiment would have four, and then three battalions, a demi brigade would have two. For what I know, the 13th DBLE is the only unit that still retains this name.

Hope this helps. Just ask if you need specifics. I can probably help with contacts in Vincennes (did that for John recently, and his errand was probably much more complicated than anything you might need...).

Francois

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen
Google and I believe the 7th Algerian was replaced by the 47th (French?) Infantry and all three Senegalese Regiments were replaced by (white) Colonial Regiments. Officially because the African soldiers were less able to endure cold weather. Google hints of racial issues as the real reason.

This is weird... For what I understand, the 47th Infantry Regiment (motto Semper Fidelis, go figure!) was a "rappelé" unit, ie existing only in times of mobilisation. As such, it was formed in 1939 and disbanded in 42. It was then rebuilt in 1955 in Algeria, to incorporate conscripts. Also, as a line regiment, it seems strange to see it in what clearly was a troupe coloniale outfit.

The 7th RTA served occupation duty in germany until the early 50s, and then was sent to Indochina. It was considered a pretty reliable unit, in fact it did serve on the french side in Algeria... Don't know where Google found its information, but it seems a bit off.

Francois

Thanks

Found a lot more here: http://www.scribd.com/doc/68366409/39-4 ... ndochine-1

Still a bit hazy on the 2nd Armored.
Stuff here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2nd_Armore ... n_(France)
and here: http://translate.google.com/translate?h ... 6bih%3D778

Can't seem to find a full OOB yet.

The 2eme DB is a difficult outfit, as it grew throughout the war, from a purely free french unit with units from west africa (known then as column leclerc), into a division mostly built from units from the Armée d'Afrique in 1943, then incorporating other elements during the campaigns in France and Germany in 1944 and 1945.

The classical reference work for french OOB would be the "Grandes Unites Françaises" series published by the ministry of defense in the sixties. Volumes one to three will have the 1940 OOB, volume four the 42-43 units, and volume five (which is actually a four book monster) the 44-45 OOB. The data you want should be in volume 5, part 2.

I doubt you can find them in book shops or on Amazon, but specialised libraries certainly have a copy.

http://stonebooks.com/archives/971116.shtml

Francois

About 9th Colonial Division I have the following:

OOB on 8th May 1945

Guard Detachment, Provost Detachment
6th, 21st and 23rd Colonial Infantry Regiments
Moroccan Colonial Infantry Regiment (Armored)
Moroccan Colonial Artillery Regiment (3 groups)
26th Colonial Anti-Aircraft Group
71st (mot.) Colonial Engineer Battalion
71/84th Mixed Signals Company
71st Headquarters Company
171st and 271st Transportation Companies
21st Divisional Ordnance Company
25th Divisional Operations (Quartermaster) Company
25th Medical Battalion

On 29th May 1945 designated for transport to the Far East. In June received volunteers to bring it up to strength. Began moving elements to Marseille for shipment on 30th September 1945, first elements left for Far East on 12th October 1945.

The division was under command of General Jean-Etienne Valluy (who is already in the database)

Wish I knew this before i began my mod!

Thanks,

BTW JeffK,

IS that a latin catapult quote I finally noticed! It's been decades, but I think it says give me your money or I will throw a big rock at you. Is that right?

ORIGINAL: topeverest

Wish I knew this before i began my mod!

Thanks,

BTW JeffK,

IS that a latin catapult quote I finally noticed! It's been decades, but I think it says give me your money or I will throw a big rock at you. Is that right?

Yep.
The translations is;
I have a catapult. Give me all the money, or I will fling an enormous rock at your head

ORIGINAL: fcharton
Lieutenant de vaisseau is just the navy term for captain, OF-2 in NATO-speak. Capitaine de vaisseau (the head of BMEO) is OF-5

Just for clarity for anyone not up to speed on NATO rank equivalencies, that would be Lieutenant de vaisseau = Lieutenant (Naval) = Captain (Army) and Capitaine de vaisseau = Captain (Naval) = Colonel (Army)