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Armoured Division composition
Posted: Thu Jun 06, 2013 7:52 am
by cbardswell
Ok, question for anyone and everyone.
I've given up carrying infantry on my tanks because it seemed to be a waste of time. Losses on my panzer-grenadiers were consistently horrendous * . I now run pure tank armoured divisions. Typically 6 tanks and move infantry in separately either mechanised or motorised to secure the flanks of my penetration.
What have I missed? Have other people had the same experience? How do you structure your armoured divs? What "teeth to tail" balances do you go for? Have these questions already been answered in another thread? (I've had a browse but didn't find anything definitive)
Cheers all!
* typically 50% per engagement - I mentally have the image of that bit in Saving Private Ryan when the quad 20mm opens up on the infantry assaulting the Tiger resulting in a fine red mist.
RE: Armoured Division composition
Posted: Thu Jun 06, 2013 8:33 am
by jday305
Try including halftracks with your armour units that include infantry. The halftracks offer better protection for them and the armour units will benefit with the better recon points that infantry have.
RE: Armoured Division composition
Posted: Thu Jun 06, 2013 2:17 pm
by cbardswell
Yes - that's basically where I had got to as well - mechanised inf in tandem with armour - but I was more intrigued if anyone else tries to have infantry ride on armour and not get consistently minced - is it just a nice option for when you are rolling victoriously across the steppe post breakthrough and your men can't be arsed to wait for the trucks. Essentially they don't get any advantage from being with tanks that I can see.
Cheers
RE: Armoured Division composition
Posted: Thu Jun 06, 2013 2:28 pm
by jday305
I had the same problems with casualties when infantry just rode on tanks; usually 30-40% casualties even when just fighting other infantry. This happens even when softing up the enemy with air and artillery attacks. I guess in real life these infantry are even more exposed to enemy fire being elevated 5+ feet while riding the tank than normally advancing on foot. Once half tracks were included I had many battles with little to no infantry casualties while rolling over the enemy AI infantry. If there is a way to do it without halftracks I don't know what it is.
RE: Armoured Division composition
Posted: Thu Jun 06, 2013 2:59 pm
by Twotribes
My armor division.
4 Armored cars
2 Light Tanks
5 Medium Tanks
40 rifle
10 Machine guns
10 mortars
2 Flak
4 half Tracks.
My mechanized Division.
50 rifle
10 Machine guns
10 Mortars
10 Bazooka
2 flak
2 Assault guns
2 Tank destroyers
5 Half Tracks
RE: Armoured Division composition
Posted: Thu Jun 06, 2013 3:04 pm
by Twotribes
My Armor Corps
3 Armor Divisions
1 Mechanized Division
1 Armored cavalry Brigade
1 Artillery Division
Armored Cav
5 jeep
5 Armored Car
5 Light Tanks
20 Rifle
2 flak
2 Half tracks
Artillery Division
10 Artillery
2 Flak
6 transport ( either trucks or Half tracks depending on what I have available
Takes about 200 staff for this formation.
RE: Armoured Division composition
Posted: Thu Jun 06, 2013 5:37 pm
by Josh
I've ran into the same problem as well Charlie. Used to build medium tanks and give them some infantry, say 10 per 3-4 tanks. Died like flies. Only thing they do is soak up shots fired at your tanks... so your tanks *should* have a higher survivability...should have. Dunno. I've changed from medium tanks to light tanks... they really are infantry killers so no reason to give them infantry support. They gain Exp fast because of the infantry kills they make, and are cheaper to upgrade. A lvl II-III light tank with a high experience level is a awesome killer, fast and deadly. IMHO it is very hard to get high level exp infantry...60 and higher is rare. So that is where the cavalry comes in. More expensive but also more deadly, *and* they gain pretty high exp levels... a bit odd to see them as "panzergrenadiers" but oh well.
RE: Armoured Division composition
Posted: Thu Jun 06, 2013 7:58 pm
by alomoes
So half tracks are the transport of choice? I usually use trucks, but still lose a lot of men. I'll try it in a small battle.
RE: Armoured Division composition
Posted: Thu Jun 06, 2013 8:01 pm
by Twotribes
ORIGINAL: alomoes
So half tracks are the transport of choice? I usually use trucks, but still lose a lot of men. I'll try it in a small battle.
Half Tracks absorb hits meant for the Rifle and Infantry type units they carry. And they add a lot of recon as well. Tanks are blind as bats. Including light tanks.
RE: Armoured Division composition
Posted: Fri Jun 07, 2013 8:41 am
by Josh
ORIGINAL: alomoes
So half tracks are the transport of choice? I usually use trucks, but still lose a lot of men. I'll try it in a small battle.
Depends. I use horses almost throughout the game, they are cheap and don't use oil and much supply, and can go through *any* terrain. Halftracks are faster and offer more protection... but are quite expensive both in PP's and oil usage. So I use HT's from midgame till endgame for the more experienced troops, those have also AT guns, mortars, MG's and Inf guns attached, so quite the punch.
RE: Armoured Division composition
Posted: Sat Jun 08, 2013 1:52 am
by srndac
Man!
Now, if I remember it right, the stack points for these units of yours are about:
Armor Division: 4*5 +7*10 +60*1 +2*10 = 170
Mech Division: 80*1 +2*10 +4*10 = 140
Armored Cavalry: 5*5 +5*10 +20*1 +2*10 = 115
Artillery: 10*10 +2*10 = 120
You must have some horrendous casualty rates!
RE: Armoured Division composition
Posted: Sat Jun 08, 2013 2:26 am
by Twotribes
ORIGINAL: srndac
Man!
Now, if I remember it right, the stack points for these units of yours are about:
Armor Division: 4*5 +7*10 +60*1 +2*10 = 170
Mech Division: 80*1 +2*10 +4*10 = 140
Armored Cavalry: 5*5 +5*10 +20*1 +2*10 = 115
Artillery: 10*10 +2*10 = 120
You must have some horrendous casualty rates!
I am fighting 10 to 16 units per attacked stack with lots and lots of troops in them. It generally takes a full corps to break the stack. But then I believe in bigger is better.
RE: Armoured Division composition
Posted: Sat Jun 08, 2013 3:07 am
by srndac
ORIGINAL: Twotribes
ORIGINAL: srndac
Man!
Now, if I remember it right, the stack points for these units of yours are about:
Armor Division: 4*5 +7*10 +60*1 +2*10 = 170
Mech Division: 80*1 +2*10 +4*10 = 140
Armored Cavalry: 5*5 +5*10 +20*1 +2*10 = 115
Artillery: 10*10 +2*10 = 120
You must have some horrendous casualty rates!
I am fighting 10 to 16 units per attacked stack with lots and lots of troops in them. It generally takes a full corps to break the stack. But then I believe in bigger is better.
In this game? No way.
The more troops (or units) the better - yes.
But larger units just suffer more losses and inflict less in return ...
And don't get intimidated by the enemy's numbers - the bigger they are the easier they fall - and this game shows it.
Take this enemy of yours, for example:
10 to 16 huge units? That sounds to me like units I saw sometimes - some 100 or more Rifles or SMG's in a unit right? (Okay, maybe they're Tanks instead - the principle's all the same) So that's at least 1000 Infantry - say 1000 Stack Points.
So, the Combat Power of each Rifle/SMG drops to (100 / 1000) a 1/10th of the full value, but the HP's of each Rifle/SMG drop likewise. *hint* *hint*
Sure, the numbers will eventually push you back, but not before you take out a whole lot of them than they can ever take out of you.
Especially if your troops are in some kind of Cover. (which is a huge bonus against Armor)
Besides, you've got room to fall back on, right?
And they don't have inexhaustible numbers either.
It's maneuvering time!
RE: Armoured Division composition
Posted: Sat Jun 08, 2013 4:14 am
by Twotribes
Most games except artillery the individual unit is no bigger then 100 Rifle or some mix. One exception was a game where the AI plus built units with 2 to 300 rifle in them, those are easy to take out. One wants to advance one commits the troops needed for the task.
RE: Armoured Division composition
Posted: Sat Jun 08, 2013 4:17 am
by srndac
And, since I'm already replying - here's my unit mix:
Tank Brigade:
4 Tanks or Armored Cars
5 Mortars
5 Rifles or Bazookas or Mortars (as necessary)
Mech Brigade:
2 Armored Thingies (Tanks, AG's, TD's, AC's - as necessary)
2 Infantry or AT Guns (as necessary)
5 Mortars
15 Rifles or SMG's
2 Halftracks
Infantry Brigade:
2 Infantry or AT guns (as necessary)
5 Mortars
5 MG's or Bazookas or Mortars (as necessary)
20 Rifles (30 if 2 Horses)
5 Horses (or 2 if you want just Guns mobile)
(haven't played ATG much, so I have no idea how Cavalry fits in all this)
Artillery Brigade: (at least 1 per 3 or 4 other Brigades)
4 Artillery
10 Rifles (5 if on Horse)
3 Trucks / Halftracks or 5 Horses
any Flak's in the Army are mixed in here - usually 2 or 3 of them instead of Rifles, and with additional Trucks / Halftracks / Horses to carry it all.
Note that all of these are mixed to about 50 Stack Points.
Cheers!
RE: Armoured Division composition
Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 5:45 pm
by Strategiusz
If I have PP I prefer Mortars (rear units) as a tank riders, or Bazookas (more HP, additional anti-tanks power). If you use front area infantry in attack you must think about them as a chaff, they job is to take enemy fire and die, but maybe your other units (real attacking units) will survive longer.
RE: Armoured Division composition
Posted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 2:58 pm
by cbardswell
Thanks guys (I go on holiday for a week and find plenty to mull over on my return). It seems I am not missing anything - riding on tanks in the assault is code named "operation certain death".
Great shout on including rear area units with tanks- I think that's probably e refinement I need to make. Will stick to my armoured divisions consisting roughly 6-8 armoured units; (with rear area units to be experimented with and added). Along with a separate mot/ mech div/bde.
2 other quick ones -
1) I tend to include artillery within my divisions - is e any advantage to doing so or is it better to have separate armoured brigades?
2) stacking (whilst I am aware that this is the "3rd rail" of these forums, this is a mechanical rather than philosophical question) - when stacking penalties are applied, do they count on the departure hex, or the destination hex. I.e. I have 6 units surrounding a city of 100 stack pints each. If they attack simultaneously do I face a massive stacking penalty, or only if they are jumping off for mother same point. Instinctively I think I know the answer but confirmation would be appreciated.
Thanks all - the knowledge sharing is awesome!
Charlie
RE: Armoured Division composition
Posted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 12:20 pm
by srndac
ORIGINAL: cbardswell
Thanks guys (I go on holiday for a week and find plenty to mull over on my return). It seems I am not missing anything - riding on tanks in the assault is code named "operation certain death".
Great shout on including rear area units with tanks- I think that's probably e refinement I need to make. Will stick to my armoured divisions consisting roughly 6-8 armoured units; (with rear area units to be experimented with and added). Along with a separate mot/ mech div/bde.
2 other quick ones -
1) I tend to include artillery within my divisions - is e any advantage to doing so or is it better to have separate armoured brigades?
2) stacking (whilst I am aware that this is the "3rd rail" of these forums, this is a mechanical rather than philosophical question) - when stacking penalties are applied, do they count on the departure hex, or the destination hex. I.e. I have 6 units surrounding a city of 100 stack pints each. If they attack simultaneously do I face a massive stacking penalty, or only if they are jumping off for mother same point. Instinctively I think I know the answer but confirmation would be appreciated.
Thanks all - the knowledge sharing is awesome!
Charlie
1. Not sure I got the question right - but, IMHO, it's best to leave Artillery out of the Actual 'Combat' Brigades as it only takes up valuable Stack room once it has spent all of it's AP's on the (extremely useful) enemy bombardment.
2. Destination hex. The attacking 'Units' are counted as 'moving' into the attacked hex (even if they didn't move in fact) which is represented by the fact that after the attack is won (presumably) the attacking units may move into the 'conquered' hex for free.
And, FYI, Stacking limit is 50 Stack per direction of attack. The minimum is 100, and maximum (obviously) is 300 - so your 600 stack points attacking would have their Attack and Hit Points Halved.
Basically, and IMHO, your 100 Stack Point units are only good for attacking one by one - not at all en masse.
Cheers!
RE: Armoured Division composition
Posted: Wed Jun 19, 2013 4:24 pm
by Strategiusz
Attacking one by one has sense only when you attack, wait turn, attack etc. During given turn hexes remember stackpoints for land attacks, air attacks and artillery bombards.
RE: Armoured Division composition
Posted: Mon Jun 24, 2013 10:04 am
by cbardswell
@srndac
My question was a bit different to the one you answered but not entirely clear to be fair!
It's not so much whether it makes sense to include artillery within divisions but do they get any advantage from sharing an HQ.
So, let's say I've got an infantry corps consisting 3 divisions of 100 rifles each. I have the option of attaching a 10 strong artillery division under the same HQ. will the infantry get any advantage from attacking a target that has been bombarded by the artillery by virtue of the fact the artillery is under the same HQ? (I.e. beyond the normal assist effects of artillery bombardment, but specific to that fact they share an HQ)