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Trucks
Posted: Sat Jul 27, 2013 9:54 am
by Peltonx
I know very little about SHC so looking for an answer from a pro, which would also help out newer peeps.
I have read before about how trucks can become a major issue for SHC from 43-45. I have seen its effects in several of my late war games. SHC infantry only able to attack the front lines and MoT SHC units only able to hasty attack 2nd line and then not advance because of a lack of MP's.
I have been able to imploy the turn to hex ratio to Berlin withdrawal tactic in several games during the blizzard and even summer. SHC is unable to hit the second line DA only HA's. Even the infantry in most case can not advance into the first line, making easy for me to score a bunch of morale building counter attacks.
I have read the rules on movement, but I am still not sure what the % is.
trucks on hand and trucks needed: 88/ 100 or 88% of required trucks.
Testing I have seen the issue seem to begin at 87-90% range.
At what point does this become a real issue? 90%, 85%,80% ect ? Dropping MP's to 12 or below for infantry?
RE: Trucks
Posted: Sat Jul 27, 2013 10:25 am
by morvael
The shortage is true (starts in late '42), but it affects directly motorized units only. The rest is slowed down by the usual factors:
fatigue
leader initiative
leader admin
fuel/supplies
The truck shortage affects supplies and in this indirect way affects MP of infantry units. However, I think most reduction comes from the throngs of bad leaders the Soviet are forced to use, because there are not enough better ones. In-unit vehicle shortage doesn't affect non-motorized units.
See 14.1.2 in the manual.
To ease supply situation, try to stop at 17k planes on 100 airfields after the Dec'42 air regiment max strength increase, rather than overcrowding them and increasing supply needs (10-15k trucks needed less) and having operational losses tripled.
It might be good idea to put some parts of the front on static, to have the rest moving faster, but this costs a lot of AP.
RE: Trucks
Posted: Sat Jul 27, 2013 10:29 am
by morvael
Even without fatigue, two failed leader rolls leave you with 9MP, if they use integer math in the code (should be 10). As the minimum is 8, there is not much the supply situation can change for infantry units.
RE: Trucks
Posted: Sat Jul 27, 2013 11:12 am
by Peltonx
ORIGINAL: morvael
Even without fatigue, two failed leader rolls leave you with 9MP, if they use integer math in the code (should be 10). As the minimum is 8, there is not much the supply situation can change for infantry units.
That is a big change from 16, because of cost to enter E-ZoC, summer or blizzard. If they are below 12 that's big for infantry.
I ran a few tests and routed mech units lose about 18% of trucks or 333 trucks, tank Corp lose 14% or about 225 trucks per route.
So routing Mech/tank Corp is a big hit not counting morale. If as GHC you can route 8-12 units per turn that's a nice little hit. 2500 ish not sure how many more are damaged.
How many trucks does SHC receive from 43-45,
per turn?
RE: Trucks
Posted: Sat Jul 27, 2013 11:20 am
by morvael
But this shows infantry will be slowed down due to bad leaders, not due to bad truck situation. However, mech and tank corps will be slowed because of trucks, and having retreats/routs of mech/tank corps is very bad for trucks. That's why it must be limited as the Soviets - never keep a tank army on the front. Due to low element count it's vulnerable to counterattack and it costs you a lot of tanks and trucks. I keep my tank armies in second line - to counterattack, or attack after moving 1-2 hexes in your turn (but always return behind the rifle corps screen). Just as the Germans did with their panzers in '43-'45.
If you save all vehicle factories you get 660 from them in '43. Lend-lease in 4500 in '43, 6000 in '44. LL is very important just because of trucks (and a little because of aircraft).
RE: Trucks
Posted: Sat Jul 27, 2013 11:35 am
by loki100
This if for July 43, in a SP game where I don't think I lost any truck factories in 41:
4,500 from LL;
8,937, refit/returned
650 domestic per turn
in poor weather turns its easy to burn through 5-6000 (mostly supply) in good weather I seem to be using up 1500.
I probably overdid Mech Corp formation (I think I have 5) and been too careless with the Cav - have tended to overextend and had a lot of routs (its SP so trying to simulate the Soviet offensive tactic of just one more push). Operational doctrine was to go too far on the breakthrough in an attempt to maximise the disruption, even if, inevitably, the breakthrough tended to end in a lost defensive battle.
I've got inf MPs running from 8-16.
Generally this all seems right, the Soviets were hampered time and again in both setting up and conducting an operation by the lack of trucks at all levels.
One thing I am doing to keep usage down is limiting my attacks. Even if I can (ie the AI has stuck a 1-2 CV unit next to a Gds Rifle Corps) am keeping put and concentrating on no more than 2 major offensives per turn. Since I started that, slowly, I've got the truck situation more under control. So I suspect the truck rule is a good way to make a Soviet player in mid-late game not attack all along the line.
To give me a fun game, I've got axis morale at 130, their other bonuses at 110.
RE: Trucks
Posted: Sat Jul 27, 2013 2:01 pm
by Peltonx
4,500 LL is per turn or per month?
5k-6k in mud and blizzard?
1.5 summer?
Many SHC players I play do the tactic of inf push a hex then Tank/mech/cav hit the 2nd line and then push through units into the 3 and 4th hex.
I hit the 1st hex(they generally route also because line behind them is over stacked, cutting off the rest of the units then simply route them all. Last turn vs BrianG I routed 12 mech/tank/cav units. Going by my test numbers 3500 truck + extra morale loses + equipment.
Hugh was doing allot of same tactic and by the time I started withdrawal late Dec 43 he could not hardly hit the first line with Infantry DA's and mech/tank/cav had all they could do to move into the cleared hex. I would then route or get retreats on more mech/cav/tank units.
I was using the hex to turn Berlin withdrawal starategy and it was working perfectly.
RE: Trucks
Posted: Sat Jul 27, 2013 2:27 pm
by loki100
per turn for LL, any poor weather for the attritional losses, so if you are too active, esp in mud, it will really put you in deficit.
I learned the hard way in a scenario PBEM not to stack the second line to capacity, even if you used it to start an offensive you can usually find a few MPs to move some of the infantry back.