Matrix Games Forums

Still playing First Contract 1986 (as Norway)

I recall that H3 AI would allow for defensive missiles to be launched before the incoming vampires were within range so as to meet the inbound missile in time.

In Command my frigates will launch Sea Sparrows to defend nearby missile boats, but they ALWAYS launch them too late, and the boats get hit before the Sea Sparrows get there.

This has happened several times now in this scenario.

As I recall Command uses a DLZ (dynamic launch zone) calculation when it comes to engaging. Early on in beta there were issues of missiles running out of gas at the outer edge of their envelope due to target maneuvers. IIRC, a bit of a pad (10%?) was added to make sure missiles weren't wasted on long-range shots.

Without this a player could dance at the edge of a SAM envelope and get the AI to blow its' SAMs at them with little danger. Come to think of it, this was a REAL tactic used by some Israeli pilots against the SA-6 in '73... [:D]

You can also elect to invoke the HOLD FIRE option and MANUALLY engage inbound vampires if you're seeing the AI is using spurious judgement.

You can also elect to invoke the HOLD FIRE option and MANUALLY engage inbound vampires if you're seeing the AI is using spurious judgement.

Good idea but will this allow be to LAUNCH at an inbound when the inbound is out of range (knowing that it will be in envelope once my bird makes it there)? I don't think it will? Maybe as bearing only...hmmm I'll try.

OK. BOA wont work b/c altitude is too low (for Sea Sparrow)

How about a BOA attack option for air targets--would that be possibility??

The DLZ restriction would still need to be met, IIRC. I don't think any AAMs or SAMs are BOL in Command, but I haven't tried it!

ORIGINAL: ExMachina

OK. BOA wont work b/c altitude is too low (for Sea Sparrow)

How about a BOA attack option for air targets--would that be possibility??

ORIGINAL: Primarchx

The DLZ restriction would still need to be met, IIRC. I don't think any AAMs or SAMs are BOL in Command, but I haven't tried it!

I think you're correct on both counts.

So, I'm now going to assert that the AI needs some work on managing its use of defensive missiles. It's only firing when the inbound target is within range (which you could argue might be correct for 1986) but it is clearly firing when the missiles have ZERO chance of making it to the target.

One small consideration - I would argue that the AI technically doesn't (shouldn't?) know what the 'target' of an inbound vampire is. It fires anyway as it thinks it can hit the vampire but the vampire ceases to exist before the calculated intercept point.

ORIGINAL: ExMachina

Still playing First Contract 1986 (as Norway)

I recall that H3 AI would allow for defensive missiles to be launched before the incoming vampires were within range so as to meet the inbound missile in time.

In Command my frigates will launch Sea Sparrows to defend nearby missile boats, but they ALWAYS launch them too late, and the boats get hit before the Sea Sparrows get there.

This has happened several times now in this scenario.

I had this happen in the FOST scenario, when a slew of SS-N-7s were fired at one of my Frigates.

A nearby warship launched it's SAMs at the first incoming group, but it had no chance of reaching them before they would hit the targeted vessel.

Even worse, when the SSMs either failed to acquire their target or missed and flew past the targeted ship into open sea, that other vessel would still keep firing more SAMs at them when after they were no longer a threat. All while numerous other groups of SSMs were still incoming.

Probably something quite difficult to program, but the SAM vessel was just wasting all it's missiles on SSMs that they couldn't reach in time, and ones that had missed and were no more of a threat.

Hence the reason we lobbied and got the HOLD FIRE option. Some complex circumstances require human judgement.

ORIGINAL: Primarchx

Hence the reason we lobbied and got the HOLD FIRE option. Some complex circumstances require human judgement.

That's a lot of micro-management, having to manually target numerous vessel's SAMs against other fast-moving missiles. But it looks like we may have to do that for the moment.

Makes me wish the Start/Stop Time hotkey was set to the Spacebar for ease of use. [X(]

I'm not saying you have to use HOLD FIRE. In most circumstances the AI will do just fine. But complicated multi-axis raids with crossing targets can be tricky. Besides, I'm a inverterate micromanager...

And yes, I have mapped the PAUSE key (F12?) to MOUSE3 on my Logitech gaming mouse. [:D]

ORIGINAL: NefariousKoel

ORIGINAL: Primarchx

Hence the reason we lobbied and got the HOLD FIRE option. Some complex circumstances require human judgement.

That's a lot of micro-management, having to manually target numerous vessel's SAMs against other fast-moving missiles. But it looks like we may have to do that for the moment.

Makes me wish the Start/Stop Time hotkey was set to the Spacebar for ease of use. [X(]

One small consideration - I would argue that the AI technically doesn't (shouldn't?) know what the 'target' of an inbound vampire is. It fires anyway as it thinks it can hit the vampire but the vampire ceases to exist before the calculated intercept point.

Sure, but there has to be happy medium somewhere. The case I've experienced was one where my frigates wasted most of their missiles on targets that were obviously not inbound. Unsurprisingly, when missiles were actually inbound on the frigates, their magazines were pretty dry.

Well, it LOOKS simple on the face of it, but I'm thinking once you drill in it gets pretty involved.

How much does and should the AI know? Should it know the targets of inbound vampires? Probably not since that would break realism. Shooting 'early' is fraught with the AI knowing or accurately guessing the intent of inbound attacks. Of course it has to make a decision somewhere along the line, but you begin to see how complexity ramps up.

Should it know to stop firing once a missile has missed a target (or overflown the debris of an old target)? Well, guided missiles still in flight after a miss might acquire a new target and those might want some assistance.

So what you really need then is an battle management AI that can get a comprehensive picture of the battle area and make high level decisions on when to shoot and when not to shoot. I think that's easier said than done.

ORIGINAL: ExMachina

One small consideration - I would argue that the AI technically doesn't (shouldn't?) know what the 'target' of an inbound vampire is. It fires anyway as it thinks it can hit the vampire but the vampire ceases to exist before the calculated intercept point.

Sure, but there has to be happy medium somewhere. The case I've experienced was one where my frigates wasted most of their missiles on targets that were obviously not inbound. Unsurprisingly, when missiles were actually inbound on the frigates, their magazines were pretty dry.

In my example, there was only one vessel in the path of this stream of SSMs. It was pretty clear cut. The SAMs were still wasted on the ones that had missed and flew past, into a vast open sea, no longer a threat.

I can understand if there were more ships behind that one, especially a non-warship HVU. But there wasn't. So it can definitely use some adjustments in such cases.

Understood. But having an AI 'know' this is tougher than you'd think. Not that I don't think we'll be seeing battlespace management improve as the game matures...

ORIGINAL: NefariousKoel

In my example, there was only one vessel in the path of this stream of SSMs. It was pretty clear cut. The SAMs were still wasted on the ones that had missed and flew past, into a vast open sea, no longer a threat.

I can understand if there were more ships behind that one, especially a non-warship HVU. But there wasn't. So it can definitely use some adjustments in such cases.

Understood. But having an AI 'know' this is tougher than you'd think. Not that I don't think we'll be seeing battlespace management improve as the game matures...

That's what I want to hear!

While the AI cannot be all-knowing it also shouldn't be all-stupid [;)].