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Downed Pilots in the game?
Posted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 7:52 am
by Agathosdaimon
in the process of a mission i lost an fa18 - this got me to wondering ifis possible to have stranded pilots in the game, like in Jane's Fleet Command - this as an optional setting could add some chaotic elements and increase the tension and decisions that must be made, when suddenly new missions must be created within the scenario outside of the initial objectives.
It adds also a more human element if a pilot has ejected and is calling for help - although perhaps this isnt necessary totally realistic as i read that pilots down in hostile territory know not to radio their position right away. Though perhaps again that may be just the technology of the past, ...
RE: Downed Pilots in the game?
Posted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 7:57 am
by Harcikecske
+1, very good idea!
RE: Downed Pilots in the game?
Posted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 8:07 am
by .Sirius
In the CWDB there is a facility for a downed pilot also in the ships section there is a platform for a rubber raft ie down pilot
RE: Downed Pilots in the game?
Posted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 8:48 am
by Agathosdaimon
thats great, so it would be no prob making a scenario based around rescuing a down pilot, and that is a fine approach. What i was thinking though was something which is in the game mechanics - ie the possibility that a pilot survives being shot - so its a random really as to whether it may happen, but that it could happen in any scenario when aircraft are combat ....well its was just something that i saw in Fleet command which i liked and which could throw a spanner in ones plans -
but of course this is understandably difficult to employ into the game overall and certainly if one wanted to be realistic the survivors would be all over the place from sunken ships and that would be going too far - perhaps for future games
actually i was thinking that there is a whole layer to wargaming which has been left out of most if not all games - not just the odd civilian but droves of fleeing civilians. such as all the roads being clogged with people fleeing in germany if WW3 happen
RE: Downed Pilots in the game?
Posted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 10:41 am
by Primarchx
In some games, for realism, I'll drop an RP near the point an aircraft was lost and then run my own mini CSAR mission to pick them up. A scenario editor can also come up with something similar. Though not tied to a particular aircraft a pilot and hostile pursuing forces can be teleported in to a location if a friendly aircraft is shot down (but not exactly where the plane had been hit).
RE: Downed Pilots in the game?
Posted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 11:05 am
by jomni
I'm looking at the editor now.
1) I created pilot ground unit for each aircraft in the mission.
2) Created a teleport area around the probable place where the planes might get shot down.
3) Now when a specific plane is shot down, there is an event with x% chance of spawning the pilot in the teleport area. It is not the actual place where the plane got shot down.
But you can think of it as two things... (1) the plane / parachute drifted (2) the pilot evaded the enemy and moved around.
4) Now the problem is picking them up. Last time I checked, relative RP around a unit does not fire even triggers. Or does it? If I figure this out, then the pilot is rescued when a CSAR helo goes inside the RP area / touches the pilot.
To make the mission more exciting, the pilots are a different faction (neutral) so that you have to actually search for them.
Then the ground is swarming with hostiles that may eventually kill the pilot.
RE: Downed Pilots in the game?
Posted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 11:16 am
by Primarchx
Yes, this is a good start. I believe there may be a problem teleporting a unit and having (R)RPs move with them. Instead I'd make the RP zone for each pilot Teleport be very small and have an event that saves them when a CSAR helo enters it/stays in it for a few minutes.
The presence of conditional operators (AND) in the Event Engine would allow you to set up larger Zones that only trigger IF the pilot is present AND the CSAR helo enters and stays.
ORIGINAL: jomni
I'm looking at the editor now.
1) I created pilot ground unit for each aircraft in the mission.
2) Created a teleport area around the probable place where the planes might get shot down.
3) Now when a specific plane is shot down, there is an event with x% chance of spawning the pilot in the teleport area. It is not the actual place where the plane got shot down.
But you can think of it as two things... (1) the plane / parachute drifted (2) the pilot evaded the enemy and moved around.
4) Now the problem is picking them up. Last time I checked, relative RP around a unit does not fire even triggers. Or does it? If I figure this out, then the pilot is rescued when a CSAR helo goes inside the RP zone.
To make the mission more exciting, the pilots are a different faction (neutral) so that you have to actually search for them.
Then the ground is swarming with hostiles that may eventually kill the pilot.
RE: Downed Pilots in the game?
Posted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 11:30 am
by Agathosdaimon
wow great stuff, it really is quite versatile scenario editor to be able to even approach creating a dynamic situation of possible downed pilots- perhaps someone can recreate a gripping behind enemy lines scenario - the Camao in the community scenario pack though is pretty good for a rescue like this and is what got me wondering about rescuing pilots. - Someway it adds even an emotional element to a game to factor in the individual pilots - this moral element is no less important and i think command can do many scenarios with this factored in to make in really challenging decisions - thats what makes a good wargame for me, the types of decisions that it puts before one.
RE: Downed Pilots in the game?
Posted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 11:42 am
by Primarchx
That assumes you actually lose aircraft playing CMANO.
[8D]
[:D]
RE: Downed Pilots in the game?
Posted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 11:46 am
by Agathosdaimon
yes lol, well hopefully that doesnt happen but i am not a pro at this nor ever expect to be and i tend to play less cautiously than i should in some scenarios
RE: Downed Pilots in the game?
Posted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 12:04 pm
by jomni
ORIGINAL: Primarchx
Yes, this is a good start. I believe there may be a problem teleporting a unit and having (R)RPs move with them. Instead I'd make the RP zone for each pilot Teleport be very small and have an event that saves them when a CSAR helo enters it/stays in it for a few minutes.
The presence of conditional operators (AND) in the Event Engine would allow you to set up larger Zones that only trigger IF the pilot is present AND the CSAR helo enters and stays.
I don't understand. RPs are fixed everytime you run the mission?
RE: Downed Pilots in the game?
Posted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 12:10 pm
by Primarchx
I'd still use the Pilot ground unit since the CSAR unit will not know where the RP box they need to be in is (that box will be made on the Pilot side). Once they locate the Pilot they can hover over him (enter the RP box) to rescue him. Also you can add some Hostile forces that threaten the Pilot and need to be dispatched.
RE: Downed Pilots in the game?
Posted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 11:09 pm
by jomni
I am happy to announce the whole CSAR routine is possible by events.
Detecting the downed pilot is very difficult since eyeballs are used for most of the Vietnam choppers.
Maybe make the pilots the same side as the player. This simulates radio contact at least.
With regards to rescue, the RP area (relative) around the downed pilot should be small but not be too small. I noticed that the choppers go around in circles above the downed pilot making it impossible to trigger the rescue event. You need to micromanage the choppers so that they stop at 0 kts above the small area for about 10 minutes (my conditions).
RE: Downed Pilots in the game?
Posted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 12:22 am
by CV60
I think you could reasonably model CSAR fairly by simply assigning victory points for launching a CSAR mission, (to simulate the importance to morale of trying to recover aircrew) with additional points for recovering the pilot. Recovery would be based on a set probability if the helo entered an approximately 3 mile radius around the aircraft downed marker and remained there for approximately 5-10 minutes.
RE: Downed Pilots in the game?
Posted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 5:51 am
by Fishbed
ORIGINAL: jomni
I am happy to announce the whole CSAR routine is possible by events.
Detecting the downed pilot is very difficult since eyeballs are used for most of the Vietnam choppers.
Maybe make the pilots the same side as the player. This simulates radio contact at least.
With regards to rescue, the RP area (relative) around the downed pilot should be small but not be too small. I noticed that the choppers go around in circles above the downed pilot making it impossible to trigger the rescue event. You need to micromanage the choppers so that they stop at 0 kts above the small area for about 10 minutes (my conditions).
Same side for the pilot may mean automatic fire from the enemy side. Or worse: the pilot reporting enemy positions from his raft... ^^
Maybe an abstraction like CV60 suggests is actually easier to handle on a systematic approach: you don't need a real "pilot" marker, just a zone around each downed plane that needs to be entered by the chopper (or a ship) for a certain amount of time. For victory condition matters, i.e. assign a higher price to every plane losses (like 5 points) and get 3 points for every each of the "rescue zones" cleared up (so that for instance you only lose 2 pts for each plane downed as long as you rescue the crew).
The fact of not having a downed pilot, just a "zone", allows to have such areas pop-up near the enemy without risking any ill effect. On the other hand, any zone being actually neutral would allow for the enemy to do exactly the same kind of maneuver - except that CSAR would turn into proper capture (if a plane is downed near a task force, I don't see why you wouldn't go & rescue the guy even if he isn't your own). AI would have a range limit to protect it from organizing awkward missions to the other side of the map, but the human player can still make the right decisions.
You don't even need to change any sort of logic there: "rescuing" a zone would still bring +3 victory points in our example, except that if the enemy AI does it before you do it, he'll get the points for the downed plane AND the captured pilot ^^
Doesn't need to become a "race" between both CSAR teams, but still it would add some spice, for sure!
RE: Downed Pilots in the game?
Posted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 11:27 am
by Agathosdaimon
ORIGINAL: Fishbed
ORIGINAL: jomni
I am happy to announce the whole CSAR routine is possible by events.
Detecting the downed pilot is very difficult since eyeballs are used for most of the Vietnam choppers.
Maybe make the pilots the same side as the player. This simulates radio contact at least.
With regards to rescue, the RP area (relative) around the downed pilot should be small but not be too small. I noticed that the choppers go around in circles above the downed pilot making it impossible to trigger the rescue event. You need to micromanage the choppers so that they stop at 0 kts above the small area for about 10 minutes (my conditions).
Same side for the pilot may mean automatic fire from the enemy side. Or worse: the pilot reporting enemy positions from his raft... ^^
Maybe an abstraction like CV60 suggests is actually easier to handle on a systematic approach: you don't need a real "pilot" marker, just a zone around each downed plane that needs to be entered by the chopper (or a ship) for a certain amount of time. For victory condition matters, i.e. assign a higher price to every plane losses (like 5 points) and get 3 points for every each of the "rescue zones" cleared up (so that for instance you only lose 2 pts for each plane downed as long as you rescue the crew).
The fact of not having a downed pilot, just a "zone", allows to have such areas pop-up near the enemy without risking any ill effect. On the other hand, any zone being actually neutral would allow for the enemy to do exactly the same kind of maneuver - except that CSAR would turn into proper capture (if a plane is downed near a task force, I don't see why you wouldn't go & rescue the guy even if he isn't your own). AI would have a range limit to protect it from organizing awkward missions to the other side of the map, but the human player can still make the right decisions.
You don't even need to change any sort of logic there: "rescuing" a zone would still bring +3 victory points in our example, except that if the enemy AI does it before you do it, he'll get the points for the downed plane AND the captured pilot ^^
Doesn't need to become a "race" between both CSAR teams, but still it would add some spice, for sure!
thats brilliant! i love it, would love to try a scenario with this element designed into it!
RE: Downed Pilots in the game?
Posted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 12:18 pm
by jomni
ORIGINAL: Fishbed
Same side for the pilot may mean automatic fire from the enemy side. Or worse: the pilot reporting enemy positions from his raft... ^^
Ever heard of BAT 21? He was able to act as FAC for the CAS while behind enemy lines.
Maybe an abstraction like CV60 suggests is actually easier to handle on a systematic approach: you don't need a real "pilot" marker, just a zone around each downed plane that needs to be entered by the chopper (or a ship) for a certain amount of time. For victory condition matters, i.e. assign a higher price to every plane losses (like 5 points) and get 3 points for every each of the "rescue zones" cleared up (so that for instance you only lose 2 pts for each plane downed as long as you rescue the crew).
The fact of not having a downed pilot, just a "zone", allows to have such areas pop-up near the enemy without risking any ill effect. On the other hand, any zone being actually neutral would allow for the enemy to do exactly the same kind of maneuver - except that CSAR would turn into proper capture (if a plane is downed near a task force, I don't see why you wouldn't go & rescue the guy even if he isn't your own). AI would have a range limit to protect it from organizing awkward missions to the other side of the map, but the human player can still make the right decisions.
You don't even need to change any sort of logic there: "rescuing" a zone would still bring +3 victory points in our example, except that if the enemy AI does it before you do it, he'll get the points for the downed plane AND the captured pilot ^^
But how to make an RP zone on the crash site? Or is it fixed since the start of the scenario?
RE: Downed Pilots in the game?
Posted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 1:50 pm
by Fishbed
Ever heard of BAT 21? He was able to act as FAC for the CAS while behind enemy lines.
Hum not to minimize the whole valor of his adventure, but BAT 21 wasn't exactly in a raft on the middle of the ocean next to a Soviet SAG [:D]
But how to make an RP zone on the crash site? Or is it fixed since the start of the scenario?
We would need to find a way to trigger that kind of zones everytime a plane gets destroyed (something in the line of "IF" destroyed, "CREATE" or "TELEPORT" object zone, if possible with a variable chance of happening). Seeing how open the game is so far, doesn't sound too far stretched in the near future... Can't say, only thinking out load from what I am reading from you guys [;)]
RE: Downed Pilots in the game?
Posted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 9:32 pm
by jomni
Ah you're simple way is a possible future feature. I though it could be done now.
My explanation is actually how to do it in the current build.