Matrix Games Forums

I know, probably newbie type questions, but will ask anyway. I have heard a number of people mention kill zones and choke points. Generally speaking, I know what they are meant to do, but would like if any of the experienced people can speak to them in the context of the game. For example, setting up a kill zone. What exactly do you do to do this? What are the best areas/terrain to do it? Are there good units for this work? Is there a way to lure your opponent into them? etc.

Again, hoping for advice in the context of this game, versus just generic real world explanations....thanks!

Grim,

Real world and the game answers are the same. A choke point is an area where forces are funneled into a much smaller area like a bridge crossing or narrow forest road. A kill zone is a place where units have little to no cover and they can be fired on from high cover positions. If you can get both, the enemy will have a bad day.

Thanks, nice to know - yes, I didn't know that either

ORIGINAL: Capn Darwin

Grim,

Real world and the game answers are the same. A choke point is an area where forces are funneled into a much smaller area like a bridge crossing or narrow forest road. A kill zone is a place where units have little to no cover and they can be fired on from high cover positions. If you can get both, the enemy will have a bad day.

Thanks for the explanation...is there any tricks to get the enemy to funnel into a defined kill zone or is it more luck if the enemy ends up in the right spot? Just hate to lay a trap without the enemy even coming close to it, but I guess that is part of the game. I would hope the AI might recognize the trap at times and find alternative ways around....I guess I can't have my cake and eat it too:)

The screen shot shows a perfect kill zone. 9 British tanks hidden in the forest above the road killed about 48 Russian tanks coming down the road. Most of them even did not know what hit them. At the end the Brits lost 7 tanks, only 2 of them destroyed.

One trick is to use one of your units, preferably infantry in a hold position, to delay the enemy columns and let them shoot at you. Usually, unless the enemy vehicles have a hasty order, they will stop to focus on your infantry unit. You can then target the static column with artillery.

wow..thanks for sharing....48 killed units in the same spot, I would say that is a pretty good kill zone....kind of interesting the enemy didn't see 48 burning vehicles ahead of them and kept coming that route, might have been a good warning for them to choose a different path:)

Again, thanks for sharing. Exactly the information I was looking to receive.

Due to blown bridges that was their only way to get to the VP's in reasonable time..

ORIGINAL: Haudrauf1962

Due to blown bridges that was their only way to get to the VP's in reasonable time..

Ah...makes sense. Well done in putting a great kill zone into play to force that situation.....impressive.

Here is an example of a choke point.

Roads are very much choke points when they go through restricted terrain. (Anything that slows a units normal speed.)

You can see where the Soviets come out of the north access road through the forest. Where that 150 Soviet control VL is would be a perfect place to setup a kill zone.

The south access road through the forest shows the effects of using a road as a choke point that ends up with multiple kill zones as they advanced through the forest.

The Soviets actually went down this road 3 actual times. They would start down the road and get stopped. Leave, have the NATO units move away and then they would come back and try to get through again. On the 4th time they managed to get all the way through the forest to the VL on the other side. At which time they came out into a Kill Zone. You can see all the loss markers that mark the progress of the battles.

Good Hunting.

MR

Thanks MR, great example.

ORIGINAL: Grim.Reaper

wow..thanks for sharing....48 killed units in the same spot, I would say that is a pretty good kill zone....kind of interesting the enemy didn't see 48 burning vehicles ahead of them and kept coming that route, might have been a good warning for them to choose a different path:)

In fact the AI is coded to do just that. There are times and situation where that is not possible to reroute. If you have a good ambush setup you can get a good number of kills. The AI will and can read the crosses on the map and choose to reroute follow-on forces if it deems necessary.

Varsity Level Tip

Analyze weapon systems when developing your engagement areas (kill zones), especially if you're equipped with ATGM's. ATGM's will always out range tank cannon and should be kept outside of cannon range when you're on the defense.

Stagger your weapon systems and use combined arms tactics. FIX the enemy as they approach, first with ATGM's, then with artillery/CAS/CCA, and finally tank cannon to destroy.

In the real world, as a former US Army tank officer the entire landscape of Germany is defined by fast speed avenues of approach (think roads and autobahn)that were key to Soviet doctrine. Also, the terrain is made up of valleys and choke-points that we used to call 'bowling allies' because the ridges were covered in woods and the center was a road. They look like bowling allies on a map too. Typical of most terrain in the FRG at the time. Anyway, we knew that the Soviets had to use those fast approaches so we trained to setup kill-sacks and areas of denial to channel the enemy into our terrain of choice. To setup a kill zone, use mines at the limit of your weapons and cover every obstacle with infantry and prepare to hammer with Arty as they choke up the narrow bowling allies. Oh also, be sure to keep a platoon or two of tanks to counter attack locally.

Then get ready! [X(]

The fight will be on.

They will throw the kitchen sink at you when they engage!

Good Hunting.

MR

If your armor has thermal sights, keep in mind that you can make life far, far harder for Pact units to hit them by dropping smoke right on top of your position. Your armor isn't hindered very much by the smoke since they can see right through it, but Pact units will need to be very close before they can shoot back. Combine this with a good choke point and you might find that your biggest concern is no longer survival, but having a solid enough command loop to rotate your armor in and out so that they don't run out of ammo and can keep up the tempo. My most recent play of A Time To Dance had me barely capable of moving fresh tanks into the treeline around 1415 before the last ones I'd sat down ran out of ammo; if I'd had one more command phase before the Soviets took 70% casualties I would have been prepared to roll back over the bridge at hex 1615 and begin the counteroffensive! Everyone knows that invading Russia is easy, right? [:)]

I'd recommend keeping your units as spread out as possible while still being able to concentrate an effective amount of fire on the units in your killing zone. Even if the artillery that the Russians drop on you leaves your tanks in working order, it can really hurt their readiness -- it's hard to pay attention to the enemy when you can't see anything past all the explosions around you. Spreading your units out can make a big difference since they need to call artillery down in multiple hexes to achieve the same effect they would in one barrage if you stacked all your tanks on top of each other. This also makes it easier to stagger your R&R; if you're only pulling one unit back at a time, you don't lose as much firepower.

Remember that it's okay to leave if things get too hairy. M1s are great at longer ranges, but the only real advantages they have over most models of T-80 are their optics and their stabilizers. If they get close, they'll gladly trade tanks with you -- and that's not something you can afford to do, since they've got more of them.

What is TI?

I'm going out on a limb here and thinking that you are talking about Thermal Imagining sights. If that is in fact what you are talking about everybody on these forums may not catch that. We need to at least spell out the abbreviations before we use them exclusively.

Good Hunting.

MR

1 Is there a formation type code that influence the resitance of a unit (I mean a single counter) when fired upon? I mean, if a unit (nato platoon/soviet company) moves down the road through restricted terrain is it internally arrayed in a column and can be easily shoot-up? Is this coded in any way (open formation in open terrain)?
2 Regarding LOS - let's say, I'm moving a unit into a position, that can be normally spotted be the enemy, but I screen this position with smokescreen. Unit become stationary before smoke dissipates. Can this unit be spotted by the enemy, If yes - on what conditions?
3 Is there a difference between spotting a platoon (3-4 tanks) and a company (12-14 tanks)? So, are soviet - bigger - units more susceptible to spotting than nato - smaller units?

I can only offer an answer to #1. Per the manual and it seems to be born out in gameplay, your vehicles are at risk (in order of decreasing vulnerability) moving in hasty, assault, deliberate. Hasty is march column on a road, assault units wont stop and try to find cover and engage, while deliberate uses available cover and will go to screen if solid contact is made.

-Jenrick

Once you learn how to effectively use kill zones and choke points you will be able avoid falling into the same trap. You can funnel the enemy into kill zones and choke points by using the terrain to your advantage or dropping FASCAM minefields. Several well placed minefields will make your enemy take the path of least resistance. Or natural terrain features like rivers running parallel to a road or a road going through a steep valley. A good example of a choke point is the front door to your house. If a group of men break into your house through the front door they can only enter the doorway one at a time and they are in a single file. If you sit in your Lazyboy chair with a shotgun you have a pretty good kill zone.

Murphy said it best: If your attack is going to well you are probably walking into an ambush. He also said the plan you worked very hard on goes out the window once the bullets start flying.