Matrix Games Forums

That's it. Snipers shouldn't be able to do that. They are so "invisible", that you can easily sneak past enemy to his back Victory hexes. Should be like in Close Combat. No victory hexes for snipers!

On the other hand...

The human player should take care to protect objectives gained. That is realistic. Sneaky snipers make you do that, at least witha minimal defensive force.

So in essence, I agree. A sniper should not be able to take a victory hex, especially behind your lines, but he probably won't be able to if you have properly protected it.

Wild Bill

------------------
In Arduis Fidelis
Wild Bill Wilder
Coordinator, Scenario Design
Matrix Games

OK will are looking into making the change that Smipers can not take victory hexes..... now if only get my opponents do that...Grin

Great! Then you would only have to guard against the 30 displaced tank crews running around!

Don

Don: Actually, the tank crews are no longer a threat, for all intensive purposes, but then my experience with this version are still young yet. The tank crews have maximum speed of three so that makes them very vulnerable to being useless for taking anything and being easily destructible; unlike the sniper. They do, however still have weapons, but it's unknown as to what (mixed). I have seen them shoot to range three or further, (not like the range 2 of before) so far.

A word of warning too, to those who haven't noticed it, the grenade range is now three (watch out tanks with that max. penetration of 70 or so).

Yeah, I was kidding there, I've never had tank crews take victory hexes. But I just had a campaign battle where the AI threw 42 tanks at my 16, and when I got done destroying all of them it seemed like those crews were everywhere! Thank the Matrix Gods for lots of AT's and strike aircraft!

I've also made the major mistake of taking undefended victory hexes and then moving those men elsewhere, only to have the AI take them back later. That won't happen again!

Don

Snipers should be able to take victory hexes. And so should recce units. It is up to the player to keep adequate rear security. If you don't, you deserve any trouble you get. I just had my headquarters and an SP mortar shot up by a Polish recce team in an area I assumed was secure. HQ survived, the SP mprtar didn't.

troopie

------------------
Pamwe Chete

I agree, I you can't keep your victory hexes guarded, you deserve to have them taken away from you.

BA Evans

Originally posted by troopie:
Snipers should be able to take victory hexes. And so should recce units. It is up to the player to keep adequate rear security. If you don't, you deserve any trouble you get. I just had my headquarters and an SP mortar shot up by a Polish recce team in an area I assumed was secure. HQ survived, the SP mprtar didn't.

troopie

Although I agree with the sentiment regarding snipers...they should NOT be able to take vhexes. I don't agree that simply because someone has taken a vhex they don't have to guard them.

f a force takes an important road junction, for instance, they don't just keep moving forward oblivious to who's minding the store. There is some form of defense force left to mind the store. As far as I can see from playing the game I don't think that crewmen or snipers should be allowed to occupy an enemy vhex, BUT any other force should.

Just my 2 cents.

Joe Osborne

I have a qestion regarding the basic concept of this thread. What is the real difference between a group of crewmen or a sniper and, say a two man recon squad or an anti-tank squad? For the most part, they are all pretty hard to spot and can't hold the V-hex against a determined attack. Or how about my poor beat up Matilda I with a battered hull, suspension damage & broken machinegun. I can't fire a shot, but I should be able to take a V-hex?

A unit should not be denied the ability to do this just because a unit is sneaky. What criteria do we use? Where do we draw the line? I feel that the current rules offer a fair, playable game. Just mantain proper security in your rear.

Just an opinion.

Bonzo

------------------
Robert (Bonzo) Lindsay, Coordinator
28th (North-west) Battalion Headquarters
http://dreadnaught.home.icq.com
nwbattalion@icqmail.com

Right on, Bonzo! If victory hexes are left wide open then heck anything should be able to grab it. But I guess David doesn't agree because on the new list of "fixes" snipers can't take them anymore. I thought he was joking with his post but "ask and you shall recieve"!

That is what makes Matrix so great!

Don

A victory hex is a location and really one man taking a victory hex should not be. IT also brings down the usefullness of snipers an places them more in the role they were attended for.

David

Originally posted by Bonzo:
I have a qestion regarding the basic concept of this thread. What is the real difference between a group of crewmen or a sniper and, say a two man recon squad or an anti-tank squad?........

In my opinion, the whole point of the game is to reflect history, (not testing what the game will let you get away with....)!!

Historically, I feel that regular units were charged with taking and holding ground, which is reflected in the possession of victory hexes.

Snipers on the other hand operated by making life as uncomfortable as possible for the enemy (using the minimum of forces) until they vacated the area. This is not taking and holding!!

Also, even if the enemy knew a sniper was in their rear, would it force them to react and dispatch a unit to retake the position? I would hardly think that a single sniper would generate enough threat to alter battle plans, which is exactly what the AI would do if a victory objective was retaken.

Using that logic, I cannot see why an adhoc group of survivors (crewmen) cannot claim the bit of ground they are sitting on. However, I would not like to see them coordinating like veterans in a setpiece assault. Perhaps just make them ignore the hexes for AI movement but claim them if stumbled upon???

Just an idea tossed up for discussion...
Reg.

[This message has been edited by Reg (edited September 15, 2000).]

But if a sniper is "making life uncomfortable as possible" for the enemy in a certain area, doesn't he effectively deny control to the enemy ?
As long as the sniper is there, the enemy cannot safely traverse the area, and thus the enemy can't say he holds the area.
In my oppinion, this is the main function of a sniper. Sure, he could not hold himself against a full squad, but the point is, if you want to use a certain area, then you'll have to take care of that pesky sniper and secure the area first.
(Anyone remember "Full Metal Jacket ?")

[This message has been edited by headhunter (edited September 15, 2000).]

Originally posted by headhunter:
As long as the sniper is there, the enemy cannot safely traverse the area, and thus the enemy can't say he holds the area.
In my oppinion, this is the main function of a sniper. Sure, he could not hold himself against a full squad.....

I totally agree with your statement and I had that sort of thought in the back of my mind as I wrote my original message. However, even though your sniper can effectively deny USE of the area to the enemy, you cannot say you control it yourself.

I will still stand by my statement that the victory hex represents a piece of territory that the enemy cares about. The presence of a sniper will be a pain in the butt for him tactically but it will not cause him to modify his battle plan the same way that a regular unit staking a claim on it will.

(Unless of course he needs to use the area occupied by the sniper but that becomes a tactical problem and not related to victory hex issue as an identical situation could occur anywhere on the map).

Some more to think about...
Reg.

[This message has been edited by Reg (edited September 15, 2000).]

Where's the limit? There's no big difference between a two man recon team and a sniper, except that the sniper probably got more fire power. Can an infantry squad that ran out of ammo hold a hex? Can a heavy truck hold a hex (the crewman defending it with his colt 45 better than the sniper can with his rifle)? Can an unarmed jeep?

Plz keep it as is, it might be more realistic to change.. but it's terribly difficult to consider what units are able to hold terrain or not. If so, a whole bunch of units should lose that capability.. and not just snipers.. and that will make it hard to keep track of. And .. as long noone bothers to attack the hex, even my grandmother should be able to control it. If someone takes a victory hex with a sniper, it's terribly easy to throw him out from it again.

Originally posted by Fredde:
Where's the limit? .... Can an infantry squad that ran out of ammo hold a hex? ...

I think you may be missing the point a little bit. Victory hexes are not about whether you are able to physically hold the ground or not. They represent how much the enemy (and you) CARES that you are there.

The platoon taking casualties will probably care that the sniper is there but the brigade commander isn't going to throw his carefully crafted battleplan in the trash because of one pesky sniper (easily neutralised), no matter where he is.

Any fighting unit (no matter how weak) taking a victory hex is letting the brigade commander know that the enemy is interested taking and holding piece of ground that he wants to keep. This will certainly solicit a response from him.

Victory hexes are an artificial mechanism to encourage historical behavior from both the AI and human players. (There are no victory point values on real towns in real wars!!)

Just an opinion, not a conviction,
Reg

Again, my opinion only. If a Battalion commander will not change his battle plans to rub out a sniper, will he do it for a recon squad? or a depleted platoon? or a heavy truck? fact is, he won't know WHAT took that particular piece of real estate unless he has it under observation. Without an observer, it could be an entire division A battalion commander is going to allocate a security detail to an important crossroad or hilltop and he would generally set aside a force that would reasonably be able to hold the objective, or have a reaction force that can retake it. Doing this historically accurate thing, any snipers comin' 'round ain't stayin' 'round Besides, you have to secure these (and your artillery!!) against commandos and partisans anyway. Or you pay the piper.

If v-hexes are a mechanism to force the AI and players to act in a historically relevent way, allowing snipers (& other, low combat power units) to take V-hexes forces them to do something about security in the rear. If we take the power to take V-hexes away from snipers, we should also remove it from forward obsevers (foot & vehicle) all transport & supply units, all crews, all squads containing 2? 3? or less units, all units without a working weapon because that would be historically accurate. Or perhaps we should hard code in a limit on the number of snipers. It gets kind of confusing

Anyhow, it doesn't affect my playing either way. Snipers are bought with the "spare change" & you really don't know what will pop out of the woodwork (right WB so I always watch my 6.

Bonzo

------------------
Robert (Bonzo) Lindsay, Coordinator
28th (North-west) Battalion Headquarters
http://dreadnaught.home.icq.com
nwbattalion@icqmail.com

it does rather encourage players to place at least a squad or two to guard the hex area.

Bonzo,

I think you're right on with this one. After reading this thread and especially the quote I'm noting. I don't think you should remove the ability to take a vhex from any unit(though because of recent programming changes we may lose the sniper<g>). Bonzo is absolutely right...especially the point about holding a vhex with a small defensive force or covering force.

If a player uses a sniper as some discrete recon unit (non-historical). He may be sent packing if he tries to capture a vhex that is already protected. I can't think of an individual example right now....(haven't had my coffee yet <G>) but I know there were many occasions during the war where certain objective were taken when a small recon force or something of that ilk found it unprotected....

Who discovered the open Remagen Bridge?

Regards,

Joe Osborne

Originally posted by Bonzo:A battalion commander is going to allocate a security detail to an important crossroad or hilltop and he would generally set aside a force that would reasonably be able to hold the objective, or have a reaction force that can retake it. Doing this historically accurate thing, any snipers comin' 'round ain't stayin' 'round Besides, you have to secure these (and your artillery!!) against commandos and partisans anyway. Or you pay the piper.

If v-hexes are a mechanism to force the AI and players to act in a historically relevent way, allowing snipers (& other, low combat power units) to take V-hexes forces them to do something about security in the rear. If we take the power to take V-hexes away from snipers, we should also remove it from forward obsevers (foot & vehicle) all transport & supply units, all crews, all squads containing 2? 3? or less units, all units without a working weapon because that would be historically accurate. Or perhaps we should hard code in a limit on the number of snipers. It gets kind of confusing


[/B]