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[FIXED B484] Stealth
Posted: Mon Oct 28, 2013 11:45 am
by Boltzmann
Forgive me if this has already been discussed but I could not find anything.
Regarding stealth I have a question about how effective this should be in the game.
I was testing a B-2 approaching North Korean air space (imported NK sites from game) at 20k ft and was detected ~30mi offshore. It is due to the NK radar sites having multiple possible detection vectors to be able to triangulate the B2?
RE: Stealth
Posted: Mon Oct 28, 2013 1:36 pm
by Dimitris
That sounds a bit strange. Are you sure you were detected by radar and not visually? Can you please post a save from just prior to being detected? Thanks!
RE: Stealth
Posted: Mon Oct 28, 2013 5:46 pm
by Boltzmann
Scenario and autosave
RE: Stealth
Posted: Mon Oct 28, 2013 6:42 pm
by mikmykWS
Confirmed. Have logged this in our list of things to look at.
Mike
RE: Stealth
Posted: Mon Oct 28, 2013 6:50 pm
by Tomcat84
That Spoon Rest C is having a good day! Picks up F-117, F-35, F-22 no problem too at 100+ miles. All internal loads
Oops [:)]
RE: Stealth
Posted: Mon Oct 28, 2013 8:10 pm
by JRyan
Wow.....I always wondered why the B-2 did not perform as I expected...angles and all...this has to be a DB issue I would think as the radar model would have other issues would it not? This one is important for sure......but then again how do we 'know' what the real world data would show. I mean a Serbian electronics wizard figured out a way to shoot down an F-117 did he not?
RE: Stealth
Posted: Mon Oct 28, 2013 8:16 pm
by bsq
ORIGINAL: JRyan
Wow.....I always wondered why the B-2 did not perform as I expected...angles and all...this has to be a DB issue I would think as the radar model would have other issues would it not? This one is important for sure......but then again how do we 'know' what the real world data would show. I mean a Serbian electronics wizard figured out a way to shoot down an F-117 did he not?
It was a Serbian Colonel who perfected it and then did it with one of his SA-3 batteries, there was an article about him in JED many years ago...
RE: Stealth
Posted: Mon Oct 28, 2013 10:32 pm
by snowburn
ORIGINAL: bsq
ORIGINAL: JRyan
Wow.....I always wondered why the B-2 did not perform as I expected...angles and all...this has to be a DB issue I would think as the radar model would have other issues would it not? This one is important for sure......but then again how do we 'know' what the real world data would show. I mean a Serbian electronics wizard figured out a way to shoot down an F-117 did he not?
It was a Serbian Colonel who perfected it and then did it with one of his SA-3 batteries, there was an article about him in JED many years ago...
There is a hardcore Sam Simulator, one of the scenarios is based on the F-117 Shootdown.
https://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/
RE: Stealth
Posted: Mon Oct 28, 2013 10:53 pm
by ExMachina
Wow! The Documentation file download is almost as big as the simulator itself (163MB vs 199MB) Cool! [8D]
RE: Stealth
Posted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 4:10 am
by MR_BURNS2
ORIGINAL: bsq
ORIGINAL: JRyan
Wow.....I always wondered why the B-2 did not perform as I expected...angles and all...this has to be a DB issue I would think as the radar model would have other issues would it not? This one is important for sure......but then again how do we 'know' what the real world data would show. I mean a Serbian electronics wizard figured out a way to shoot down an F-117 did he not?
It was a Serbian Colonel who perfected it and then did it with one of his SA-3 batteries, there was an article about him in JED many years ago...
Interesting, can you share a link or something or is it classified?
RE: Stealth
Posted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 7:54 am
by smudge56
Agree wow it's amazing what people will build.
ORIGINAL: ExMachina
Wow! The Documentation file download is almost as big as the simulator itself (163MB vs 199MB) Cool! [8D]
RE: Stealth
Posted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 3:12 pm
by bsq
ORIGINAL: MR_BURNS2
ORIGINAL: bsq
ORIGINAL: JRyan
Wow.....I always wondered why the B-2 did not perform as I expected...angles and all...this has to be a DB issue I would think as the radar model would have other issues would it not? This one is important for sure......but then again how do we 'know' what the real world data would show. I mean a Serbian electronics wizard figured out a way to shoot down an F-117 did he not?
It was a Serbian Colonel who perfected it and then did it with one of his SA-3 batteries, there was an article about him in JED many years ago...
Interesting, can you share a link or something or is it classified?
It was in JED (Journal Of Electronic Defense), in our crew room for ages, but I cant find it now to give you the exact edition. We were all intrigued by it and it was quite an open account (along the lines of 'it was easy if you new how (and the aircraft obliged by overflying one of your SAM's))
RE: Stealth
Posted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 10:11 pm
by mikmykWS
There was a great article in JED called Red SEAD or something like that back in the day that talked about Soviet/Russian SEAD strategy.
Don't suppose Michael Putre is out there somewhere?
Mike
RE: Stealth
Posted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 3:45 am
by MR_BURNS2
Thanks, i found their website.
They have an archive but i´ll have to subscribe for 45$ a year, that is if they allow non-military guys to read this in the first place.
RE: Stealth
Posted: Wed Jan 08, 2014 7:33 pm
by Dimitris
Fixed in Build 484.
RE: Stealth
Posted: Wed Jan 08, 2014 8:01 pm
by Bigfish
It was a Serbian Colonel who perfected it and then did it with one of his SA-3 batteries, there was an article about him in JED many years ago...
This was also reported and explaind on german TV i think 2 years ago. In fact if you know how to combine two (modern) radar sites it seems to be quite easy to detect stealth aircrafts.
The F-117 is still over 30 years of age, the B-2 ist over 20 years of age. So it is not a special thing to detect it with younger electronic equipment. Today this old stealth aircrafts onyl useful against old "third world" air defense systems. Modern first class radar sites detect these old stealth planes on suitable range - this was the conclusion of the TV report.
RE: Stealth
Posted: Wed Jan 08, 2014 8:10 pm
by Bigfish
Oh i know the reason too: The stealth planes deflect the rays, so that your radar site can't detect the radar echo because there is no radar echo. But the deflected emission could be located from a second radar site wich is located with enough distance from the first one. Also the radar must be sensetiv enough, because stealth planes could absorb much of the emission.
RE: Stealth
Posted: Wed Jan 08, 2014 8:20 pm
by APUFire
I noticed the B-2 in manual attack dropped to about 11,000 feet to drop bombs. Started out in the mid-30's. I would think that is too low.
RE: Stealth
Posted: Wed Jan 08, 2014 8:56 pm
by Rudd
I think it's more of the "old" (like the P-18 Spoon Rest) VHF and other low band radars that are being successful against "stealth", almost re-inventing themselves. They are building new types for this purpose(Nebo and Vostok)
Here's a good link
http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-Rus-Low-Band-Radars.html
RE: Stealth
Posted: Wed Jan 08, 2014 9:17 pm
by Rudd
On March 27, 1999, an F-117A that had just bombed a target in Serbia was shot down 28 miles northwest of Belgrade. The weapon that shot it down was a veteran S-125 Neva-M missile system.
The other side of the story emerged in late 2005, when the Serb commander whose battery had planned the attack discussed it in detail for the first time. Colonel Dani Zoltan—whose traditional Hungarian name had not been released because it wasn’t Serbian, a testament to the bad blood between the two nations originating in Hungary’s World War II invasion of Yugoslavia—emerged as an energetic and original leader who used good tactical sense and modified equipment to down the world’s most sophisticated stealth aircraft.
To keep his radars and operators from being attacked, Zoltan kept them on the move. He led the Third Battery of the 250th Missile Brigade on more than 50,000 miles of blacked-out travel in the 78 days of the war. He also made unspecified modifications to the P-18 radar.
Resembling a Rube Goldberg assembly of housetop TV antennas, the P-18 differed from most radar because it operated in the VHF waveband, transmitting at a much lower frequency than most other radars. The radar-absorbent material covering the F-117 is less effective against VHF radars.
The jet’s primary defense against VHF resides in the wing edges, which take the form of deep and effective absorbers, called an “electromagnetic shock absorber” by chief engineer Alan Brown in a 1992 lecture.
Avoiding detection by systems like the P-18 required a combination of careful planning, operational security, and tactics. But Zoltan’s hyperactive battery couldn’t be pinned down. Serb agents were tracking takeoffs from the F-117s’ base in Aviano, Italy, and airspace restrictions indicated that the fighters were following very similar routes, night after night.
According to Dani, when the F-117A was head-on at 26,000 feet and eight miles out, the battery fired two missiles. Each would have closed the distance in seconds. The pilot, Air Force Lieutenant Colonel Darrell Zelko, has never specified how much warning he had of the attack. One still-classified aspect of the F-117 is whether it carries any kind of radar warning receiver. If it does, even the most comprehensive studies of the aircraft have not mentioned it, nor has it been mentioned as part of any upgrade.
from
http://www.airspacemag.com/military-avi ... c=y&page=1