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Helos and scenario balance
Posted: Thu Oct 31, 2013 11:25 pm
by Panta_slith
I have noticed that most scenarios with WP helos tend to be heavily unbalanced. As NATO forces in the 80's were notorious for their lack of an efficient ADs, trusting more on their air superiority, in FPC WP Hinds command the battlefield, picking up at will the armour and the useless Vulcans (the latter seem to be absolutely ineffective against air threats). This rapidly turns the play quite frustrating for the NATO player and more often than not it seems wiser to let down that particular scenario and just pick up another one.
I won't argue about the reality of such unbalance, since fortunately WW3 wasn't fought in that way, but occurs in another way right now and nobody knows for sure, but I do know that if a scenario seems too loaded toward one side, it lacks interest. IMO helicopters are tricky assets and should be avoided in most scenarios or else they should be very carefully pondered.
RE: Helos and scenario balance
Posted: Thu Oct 31, 2013 11:43 pm
by Mad Russian
All I can tell you is there are no scenarios in this game that have not been playtested and shown for NATO to be able to at least fight the scenario to a draw.
A fact of life would have been Soviet helicopters. Keeping them out of scenarios would be like saying there are too many Soviet tanks. I know they were there but we need to restrict them so we can win.
Be glad you aren't in an M1A1 out there on the side of hill having to learn to survive in the first 10 minutes of the war. Here at least you get a chance to learn to live and fight another day.
It is a sad fact that the WP has a much better, more realistic air defense system than NATO. As you say, NATO figured it would have air superiority, something I obviously don't agree with.
These scenarios can be won. It's just not easy. If it was too easy I would be hearing complaints that the scenarios were no good.
Instead, you are telling me they are too hard. I played them until I could beat them. Then I gave them to you guys to play with.
That's the best I can do.
Good Hunting.
MR
RE: Helos and scenario balance
Posted: Thu Oct 31, 2013 11:56 pm
by MrLongleg
They are hard and that is a good thing. As NATO player you just have to accept some unavoidable losses to HIND's. Use cover and concentrate air defense on key spots. Bradleys are also useful in taking down hinds...
RE: Helos and scenario balance
Posted: Thu Oct 31, 2013 11:58 pm
by Panta_slith
What I perhaps failed to express is that staring at the screen for some 20 minutes just watching how the enemy helos pick up your units one by one and your AD do little to avoid it isn't too interesting. I guess that perhaps it should be better to start after the enemy gunship regiment digs a hole in your defences and then begin your land warfare from there on. FPC excels in depicting land warfare, but the air/ground, helos/ground aspect of the game isn't a the same level and turns are long...
RE: Helos and scenario balance
Posted: Fri Nov 01, 2013 12:07 am
by Mad Russian
ORIGINAL: Panta
What I perhaps failed to express is that staring at the screen for some 20 minutes just watching how the enemy helos pick up your units one by one and your AD do little to avoid it isn't too interesting. I guess that perhaps it should be better to start after the enemy gunship regiment digs a hole in your defences and then begin your land warfare from there on. FPC excels in depicting land warfare, but the air/ground, helos/ground aspect of the game isn't a the same level and turns are long...
ROFL!!
You're right it's not fun watching the Hinds work you over. It is gratifying when you kill some of them and drive them off though.
Some of the scenarios are assault scenarios, some are pursuit scenarios, others are meeting engagements. Not all of them are fast and fluid. Several have times in them when the combat slows down. Normally an entire scenario is not like that.
If you find a scenario that isn't to your taste that's okay. While, I would be ecstatic if you guys thought every scenario was the best one you've ever played, I'm more of a realist than that. I understand that not every one of these scenarios will be for everybody.
It's okay if you don't like some of them. They are all so different, IMO, it would be hard for a gamer to like them all.
There are varying numbers of Hinds in the scenarios. In some cases they are like a blanket. In others just a slight presence. There are even some scenarios with no helicopters in them.
If Hinds are not for you, try some of the scenarios with not so many in them.
Another option is to play with them on your side as the WP player! [X(]
Good Hunting.
MR
RE: Helos and scenario balance
Posted: Fri Nov 01, 2013 12:27 am
by Rocko911
So you are telling me that the Apache AH-64 with a OH-58D Kiowa Warrior doing recon just below tree level, house or hill couldn't take out numerous Hinds, lmao
RE: Helos and scenario balance
Posted: Fri Nov 01, 2013 12:36 am
by CapnDarwin
Helos can and do shoot each other down with cannon and the occasional AAM (if the unit carries them - none do in Red Storm, but the Polish Army has some on a helo - next expansion [:D]).
RE: Helos and scenario balance
Posted: Fri Nov 01, 2013 12:42 am
by Rocko911
Oh Capn Darwin, you have now made me start a fund for the next expansion.[:D]
RE: Helos and scenario balance
Posted: Fri Nov 01, 2013 7:16 am
by british exil
ORIGINAL: Capn Darwin
Helos can and do shoot each other down with cannon and the occasional AAM (if the unit carries them - none do in Red Storm, but the Polish Army has some on a helo - next expansion [:D]).
ORIGINAL: LRRP
Oh Capn Darwin, you have now made me start a fund for the next expansion.[:D]
OT:
I just have to ask the question, can't resist the urge. When is the next expansion to be released and how much will cost?
No I am not serious, but I know the questions will be raised, I just wanted to be the first.[:D]
Mat
RE: Helos and scenario balance
Posted: Fri Nov 01, 2013 9:11 am
by CapnDarwin
You guy's are killing me. [:D] As soon as we have a discussed and firmed up plan in house and then discussed with Matrix we will start to give you guys an idea of time frame. I can say it will be a 2014 item so you can budget better for Christmas and other year end holidays. [;)]
RE: Helos and scenario balance
Posted: Fri Nov 01, 2013 9:35 am
by british exil
Added to my 2014 Christmas wish list. 😝😜
Sorry I had to ask the questions, but as you can see the dev team have and will make a lot of people happy this year.
All the hard work has a certain amount of gratification.
Thanks a lot.
Mat
P.s no hurries concerning the expansion packs. ( notice packs in plural)😜
RE: Helos and scenario balance
Posted: Fri Nov 01, 2013 12:49 pm
by GrumpyMel
I've only just started playing the game, so forgive my ignorance....but I assume the real killer for Helo's would be hostile fixed wing aircraft. I assume there are some scenario's where NATO gets some fixed wing assets (in fact, the one I just played was one).... wouldn't those be an effective counter-measure vs the Hinds?
RE: Helos and scenario balance
Posted: Fri Nov 01, 2013 1:07 pm
by british exil
Grumpy in one of MR answers to all our questions he mentioned this, the assumption is NATO has been surprised at the speed of the attack.WP has plotted and planned their offensive well. As runways can't be moved, WP know where they have to strike to take out NATO's airpower. All airfields have been bombed and either badly damaged or completly taken out.
NATO do not control the airspace where fixed airwing is concerned. Maybe the British have a few Harrier's available, I am not quite sure, helos are available.
In other words look after your AA assets.
Mat
RE: Helos and scenario balance
Posted: Fri Nov 01, 2013 1:14 pm
by Panta_slith
I am not saying that I am against the use of helicopters in the game, they add the third axis to the battlefield, actually, but:
1-Sometimes there are just too many of them, in the dawn scenario NATO is attacked by a full regiment, 26 Hinds, without much to fire back, since the Vulcans don't seem to fire at the choppers, even at close quarters (one hex). Aren't the Vulcans a little underrated?
2-On the other hand, non-firing, dug-in Vulcans in woods terrain are almost immediately located and targetted by the choppers or arty.
ORIGINAL: Mad Russian
ORIGINAL: Panta
What I perhaps failed to express is that staring at the screen for some 20 minutes just watching how the enemy helos pick up your units one by one and your AD do little to avoid it isn't too interesting. I guess that perhaps it should be better to start after the enemy gunship regiment digs a hole in your defences and then begin your land warfare from there on. FPC excels in depicting land warfare, but the air/ground, helos/ground aspect of the game isn't a the same level and turns are long...
ROFL!!
You're right it's not fun watching the Hinds work you over. It is gratifying when you kill some of them and drive them off though.
Some of the scenarios are assault scenarios, some are pursuit scenarios, others are meeting engagements. Not all of them are fast and fluid. Several have times in them when the combat slows down. Normally an entire scenario is not like that.
If you find a scenario that isn't to your taste that's okay. While, I would be ecstatic if you guys thought every scenario was the best one you've ever played, I'm more of a realist than that. I understand that not every one of these scenarios will be for everybody.
It's okay if you don't like some of them. They are all so different, IMO, it would be hard for a gamer to like them all.
There are varying numbers of Hinds in the scenarios. In some cases they are like a blanket. In others just a slight presence. There are even some scenarios with no helicopters in them.
If Hinds are not for you, try some of the scenarios with not so many in them.
Another option is to play with them on your side as the WP player! [X(]
Good Hunting.
MR
RE: Helos and scenario balance
Posted: Fri Nov 01, 2013 1:38 pm
by Mad Russian
If that's happening, then yes, NATO's AAA threat is understated. We'll take a look at it.
That's a different issue than you just don't like Hinds! [:@]
Shoot, unless I play Soviets, I don't like Hinds either!!!! [:-]
Thanks.
Good Hunting.
MR
RE: Helos and scenario balance
Posted: Fri Nov 01, 2013 2:48 pm
by Panta_slith
Well, yes, I confess! Hinds are BAD, Hinds are MEAN and they are UGLY! Only Rambo knew how to deal with those @*! beasts! [:@]
RE: Helos and scenario balance
Posted: Fri Nov 01, 2013 3:16 pm
by Panta_slith
Just did a test (tried to): I began Dawn's scenario in hotseat mode, placed a couple of Vulcan platoons in the middle of the map and then, as a WP player, tried to close in with a Hind wing (deliberate). In five hours the choppers, even keeping their orders, just didn't move. And the Vulcans, placed out of sight dug-in in woods, were detected, though not identified. Do they have radars?
RE: Helos and scenario balance
Posted: Fri Nov 01, 2013 3:18 pm
by cbelva
RE: Helos and scenario balance
Posted: Fri Nov 01, 2013 8:05 pm
by Mad Russian
Just watched 2 Apache's take on 4 Hinds. The face off took place at 2km.
Final Score:
Apache's - 2
Hind's - 1
Great watching them duel it out!
Good Hunting.
MR
RE: Helos and scenario balance
Posted: Fri Nov 01, 2013 8:09 pm
by Mad Russian
Give your Apache's assault orders and they will go to hold. That will make them much more aggressive.
Good Hunting.
MR
