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I've been diving into the game recently and I have to say it's by far the best wargame at this scale I've played by far. Really is a gem and deserves far more credit and should be a wargame all wargamers worth their salt owns. The cards and leader aspect adds so much to the game..the immersion is fantastic for a game of this scale.

I really wish Vic had bought out some DLC for it..some more linked Army campaigns for instance.. which is where the game shines.

If Vic can replicate this sort of immersion in DC3..which will be hard I think considering it's an even higher scale.. I will def purchase.

Still I wish to god he had gone onto make a game at Coy scale along similar lines.

Wodin,

I don't think you could go to company level and have the same greatness in the game at the strategic level, such as the cards, prestige, and changing orders/victory conditions. At the strategic level, this game really shines, and battalion level allows the game to remain manageable. Company level would increase the counter number by a factor of nine or so... Nah..

If I was to complain about something, I would say it is the ineffectiveness of airpower. It's pretty worthless in this game, unless you are attacking something that is retreating. All the reading I have done has led me to believe that airpower had a much more significant effect at this level. At this scale, you would find the typical air unit conducting a number of sorties more than represented in each attack. Units traveling on roads were often devastated. This game? That's not going to happen. Also, better Interdiction and HQ bombing to ruin command control could have really shined here. Airpower really has very little role to play, except perhaps recon.

Regards

Well if Coy was done with Battalion HQ's I think ti would play well..counter amount depends on how big the scenarios you want to make (you could have scenarios with just a brigade \regiment if you wanted too...obviously you'd go done to 1000m hex..the high command cards obviously would eb different but most of the corps command cards would work. Pretty much everything could still be in but at a smaller scale including vic conditions, order changes, prestige etc..you'd just be told to take a Industrial factory instead of a City.

Your thinking of coy units at this map scale..not what I mean. This engine but at COy scale with the relevant changes needed for it to sound right.

ORIGINAL: wodin

Well if Coy was done with Battalion HQ's I think ti would play well..counter amount depends on how big the scenarios you want to make (you could have scenarios with just a brigade \regiment if you wanted too...obviously you'd go done to 1000m hex..the high command cards obviously would eb different but most of the corps command cards would work. Pretty much everything could still be in but at a smaller scale including vic conditions, order changes, prestige etc..you'd just be told to take a Industrial factory instead of a City.

Your thinking of coy units at this map scale..not what I mean. This engine but at COy scale with the relevant changes needed for it to sound right.

Would the strategic card/prestige options be viable at the scale you are talking about?

A regimental/division commander (with company manuever elements) would not be making the strategic choices made by the player in Case Blue as it stands now. I think regimental level works well, to continue to incorporate the "best" parts of DC. In my opinion, these are ground breaking rules, they really make this game the best I have played - although the rule book needs some work to explain the logistics better.

In addition, I think the combat results would have to be redone to downsize to company level. Combat is done in groups of 100 men and 5 tanks. At company level, that would be too generic for our tastes, right?

Certainly, the scenarios and scale would change. Perhaps the order level could be changed, like you suggest. Not sure if prestige is as much a factor at the company level, however. Operational orders are from above, at the level of the game as it stands now. I don't think the command structure is as flexible at the company level. You are ordered to take a village or a bridge because it supports the plan from above. A regimental commander doesn't have much say at the corp level. I am not so sure that a prestiguous regimental commander can tell Bock that "hey, how about I take this village, instead of that one?" Also, the card system for getting replacements and such. Not sure on that one. The leader cards would probably work on morale and speed and leading in combat, but I am not sure about victory condition/order changes. Or building units or receiving replacements.

Thanks for the discussion. I also enjoy the game - except for the air. Frustrating, because the other good Eastern front game also has ineffective airpower rules - WitE.

Regards

The card mechanic would have to be redone so they fit in with orders given at that scale. It certainly oable but you ahve to forget the card type sin DCCB. Everything would be at a lower scale.b Strategic cards would become tactical or even operational cards.

The combat mechanics would have to be reworked for the lower scale aswell.

The whole game would be reworked form the ground up but you can still keep the same gameplay and core features. Leaders, Card play etc etc, though I'd bring in the possibility for leaders to be wounded or killed.

Some one has made a mod for a coy scale scenario set in Crete for DC WtP. I will buy the game if it hits the Xmas sale and try it out.

Remember at this scale Stalingrad and it's outskirts would be the map!! You'd have high command orders telling you what areas to attack etc..

ORIGINAL: wodin

The card mechanic would have to be redone so they fit in with orders given at that scale. It certainly oable but you ahve to forget the card type sin DCCB. Everything would be at a lower scale.b Strategic cards would become tactical or even operational cards.

Agree. I would be curious to know what these strategic cards would become at the next lower level. Certainly, not requesting more artillery or infantry replacements. Naturally, orders would be given at lower levels. I can see that.

ORIGINAL: wodin


The combat mechanics would have to be reworked for the lower scale aswell.

Agree, as mentioned.

My suggestions (to get Barbarossa downsized to perhaps an AGC game) would require a lot less work to put to market. Apparently, Barbarossa is a big market, and this game has the potential to be the best out there. Moving to a company level would certainly require a lot of work - determining scale, change in logistics, CRT, effect of airpower (which would not be linear) and the useage of the strategic level cards and variants that make the game.

ORIGINAL: wodin

Some one has made a mod for a coy scale scenario set in Crete for DC WtP. I will buy the game if it hits the Xmas sale and try it out.

Remember at this scale Stalingrad and it's outskirts would be the map!! You'd have high command orders telling you what areas to attack etc..

I saw, but haven't played it. I am wondering how that works out, since the editor cannot change the CRT and logistics brought to units, so it might end up being odd playing out of scale. I would like to hear your opinion, however, on the cards at this lower level. Not the "Speed" that adds AP points. That seems easy enough. I mean the cards effected by your prestige points. What choices would the division commander have (I am presuming that the player would be roughly a division or corp commander - as the German, of course)?

Regards

By the way, I agree, the linked campaign game really makes the game shine. More of these would be nice. Fewer counter count, smaller map, strategic level decisions still necessary. Perhaps Sixth Army prior to Stalingrad would be another to look at - and you could see what would happen if the Germans would have not tried to take on TWO major objectives.

Yeah I'd have loved to see DLC following an army across the campaign aswell. A missed opportunity I feel.

As for the high command cards in a coy scale game I think they'd all depend on the actual scenario and be relevant for the scenario in action. I'd also imagine it would depend on what the highest HQ is. I'm sure soemthign woudl be doable.

Hey guys,

I have looked into company or bat level plans myself before and I think it would work well, especially for campaign-based games. However whats stopping me to bring it in production is time to pursue all good ideas at the same time.

The editor however is extremely powerfull (and complicated) and a good scripter/game designer should be able to make a lower level campaign game with the current engine. Only thing that would really be missing would be ranged direct fire and time periods below 1 day. (stuff that would not be to much work to add for me)

VR is also open to commercial joint ventures with proven scenario designers that have shown they can find their way around with the editor and have good plans.

Best,
Vic

Interesting Vic..thats the issue.. ranged direct fire more so than one day turns.

Is it possible to create new cards with new benefits?

I think it would have to be battalion as the lowest unit to get around the direct fire issue..need to think about it.

@wodin,

The cards are completely event based. And events are fully scriptable. For example you can even write an event for a card that creates new cards on the run

Best,
Vic

OK...such a shame there is no work around for direct range fire. However I will check out the boardgames Battle for Stalingrad and Streets of Stalingrad to see if range fire is in or not.

One work around if it was possible would be to use something similar to the current arty mechanic, possible?Then again you have los blocking issues.

More importantly you would have AI issues to use an army of all-arty units properly.

I wouldnt worry to much about the +1km fire. How often was it used effectivly in reality? I think if the settings would be early war and not located in the desert or the steppes there would really not be a reason to model it. Or let me rephrase that: it would be acceptable abstraction

best,
Vic

Wow, so much good stuff in this thread. Wodin, I agree with this completely: "I've been diving into the game recently and I have to say it's by far the best wargame at this scale I've played by far. Really is a gem and deserves far more credit and should be a wargame all wargamers worth their salt owns."

Vic, just so you know, I'd love to see a Bn/Co level game at 1km and would be happy paying for it, even if released as a new game (and not DLC). The stuff Erik Nygaard is working on looks extremely cool. I'd be first in line to buy a copy.

At 1km you wouldn't really want anything other than ranged AT/arty fire anyway, but even so...as you say, an acceptable abstraction.

+1

I really like to design scenarios for this game series, although the editor can be a bear to work with at times.
I think there is as lot more mileage left in this series.

I plan to port over several of my TOAW-scenarios (to TBKWP):
Operation Market-Garden 1944 (company, 1km)
Operation Torch 1942 (battalion, 5km)
Operation Varsity 1945 (company, 1km)
Tarawa 1943 (maybe, the map scale is really low)
Russia vs Japan 1904-1905 (regiment, 10km)

Operation Weserübung (battalion, 5km) will be ready for the first play-test soon.
Operation Merkur (company, 1km) is available on the Warsaw-Paris forum.

Those sound great, Erik! I'm really looking forward to it, Market-Garden and Torch especially (in addition to Norway and Crete). But I'd rather wait for finished product before playing simply because I'd rather buy this stuff. I played The Switzerland scenario posted in the Scenario Bank and thought it was great.

I've taken this from Vic's website: "Potential game designers might want to notice that VR Designs is open to commercial joint ventures with proven scenario designers that have shown they can find their way around with the editor and the engine AI."

I've got my fingers crossed for some very successful "commercial joint ventures" because I love this game and hope it is supported for years to come.

As someone who plays a lot of the panzer campaign series. I must admit taking this engine and card play to the operational level seems very interesting. I would hope supply consumption would be incorporated into the game play if you tackled it vic. First post in awhile as I have not really been playing the game due to lack of a consistant opponent. Sorry liquidsky your shift work is killing me