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In a recent game Japan was doing well against China. One turn end I get an option for China to Surrender to Japan. I've thought about this for some time, and I can't come up with a reason why China, or any other country for that matter, would surrender.

What would be the advantages of Surrendering?

You get the US Entry chits. (Or it might be only half as many for a surrender, and the Allies might get to roll for chits for the Chinese cities too... but I forget.)
Japan goes to Peace and her Militia go back in the Force Pool (or Reserve Pool... I forget).
So until Japan DoWs a different country, she can only take Combined actions and naval moves are only one ship/sub.

On the ones where my memory fails me, you need to check the RAC.

Personally, I'm with Winnie, "We shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills; we shall never surrender."

If Germany doesn't declare Vichy France first there are advantages to surrendering France. France would suffer a incomplete conquest but no Vichy France would be established and all French territories and Minor countries would still controlled by France.

I knew you meant incomplete conquest...

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

I knew you meant incomplete conquest...

[X(] Have corrected that sorry. [X(]

there are really no advances to surrender ..

in every case it is better to fight on to the end, and bye time ..


if the Germans did not vichy, (which meant he had the chance) he might be going for a conquest of france.

and by surrendering you just make it easy .

I don't normally do it, but if China has REALLY been beaten up. (Like, pushed all the way back to a small holdout in Lan-Chow) it might be worthwhile to surrender, try to salvage a bit of U.S. entry out of the debacle.

There's very little reason I can think of to surrender with France. Generally, I'd rather be vichied than incompletely conquered anyway. Keeping the lid on Spain is important.

it´s a simple choice.

if Japan is continue attacking you, have him waste his activity and units on you.

if Japan ignores you, surrender.


but have in mind that he can focus on somebody else

"We shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills; we shall never surrender."

Iron Maiden...Aces High

Cheers, Neilster

But Japan is NEVER going to take that last factory before the U.S. is in the war.

Even then, surrendering gives you a 35 entry bump, and an extra negative 1 to the die roll for the DoW.


Ask yourself if your continued resistance is worth getting the U.S. in the war 3-4 turns earlier, that's what's you get for surrendering.

In the 2008 errata, a voluntary surrender halves the US entry so 18 entry bump, not 35. Also if China surrenders, per the 2009 FAQ, the remaining Chinese cities are not rolled for.

I think MWiF conforms to those clarifications.

But the -1 on the "It's War" chart is definitely a consideration!

ORIGINAL: michaelbaldur

there are really no advances to surrender ..

in every case it is better to fight on to the end, and bye time ..


if the Germans did not vichy, (which meant he had the chance) he might be going for a conquest of france.

and by surrendering you just make it easy .

Remove from the game all the conquered home county’s land and aircraft units that are in the conquered home country. Remove from the game all of its land and aircraft units not on the map.

Remove any naval units in its force pools (except convoy points) from the game. All other units remain where they are.

Roll a die for each of its naval units on the production circle, or in the construction pool or repair pool.
On a ‘1’ or ‘2’ it becomes controlled by any major power the conquered major power chooses (including itself).
On a ‘3’ through ‘5’ it is destroyed.
On a ‘6’ or higher it becomes controlled by any major power the conqueror chooses.

All units from the conquered side in that country are now moved to the nearest friendly hex outside the country that they may stack in, unless they are at war with the conquerer.

All aircraft and naval units now in enemy controlled hexes are treated as if they had been overrun (see 11.11.6). This means they can be captured, destroyed or forced to rebase.

Now change the control of the conquered home country. Every one of its hexes occupied by a land unit become controlled by that unit’s controlling major power (most combat factors if more than one). All other hexes in the home country become controlled by the conquering major power. All other territory the conquered major power or minor country controls remains under its control.

If a unit’s original home country is conquered and not yet liberated, remove it from the game if it is destroyed while out of supply.
Roll a die if it is destroyed in supply ~ remove it from the game on a ‘5’ or less; otherwise return it to the force pools.

Units from conquered major power home countries can still be built with whatever production the major power retains (minor countries, conquered or not, never build their own units ~ see 19.4). However only 1 unit or marker (PiF option 28: and any number of pilots) originally from each conquered home country can arrive as a reinforcement each turn. It arrives in its new home country. Any excess units stay on the production circle until next turn.

Incompletely conquered major powers (only the UK in the case of the Commonwealth) have only half their normal activity limits (see 10.2) until liberated. They still receive the annual additions to their force pools (see 4.1.1) as normal.

Overrunning naval units
If a land unit from the other side moves into a port containing any of your naval units, they must rebase. Before they do, roll for each facedown or surprised naval unit there.

If you roll a ‘5’ or higher, you keep control of the unit. If you roll a ‘1’, the enemy major power takes control of it until destroyed (option 46: partisans destroy naval units instead of taking control). Place it in the Repair pool. On a roll of ‘2’ ~ ‘4’, it is destroyed. (Options 9 & 28: Any carrier plane (and its pilot) suffer the same fate as a CV it is on.).

With the units from the overrun hex that you keep control of, you must immediately make a return to base move (see 13.4.1) and then turn them face-down. They may not embark units during this move. They can be intercepted as they rebase and must attempt to fight through from the ‘0’ box if intercepted. If they can’t reach such a base within double their range (ignoring their movement allowance), destroy them instead.

On the production circle, or in the construction pool or repair pool on a die roll of:
1 or 2 the Allies get to keep the naval unit.
3 or 4 the naval unit is destroyed.
5+ the Axis gets to keep any naval unit.

When France surrenders:
France keeps All its Minor countries and territories and units there.
While all land and air units available at the time of incomplete conquest are removed from the game. The French force pools are not effected and annual additions are still available. Any units in the Minor countries and territories are not effected.
All face up naval units rebase that are in the Home country.
On a 5+ the Allies keep control of any face down naval unit.
On a 1 or 2 the Allies keep naval units on the production circle, in the construction pool, or repair pool.
France keeps the oil resource from Iraq and the non-oil resources from Hanoi, New Caledonia, and Senegal.

Since no Vichy France was established Japan cannot align French Indo-china or Madagascar.

France still cannot co-operate with the CW and establishes a new Home country.
France has only half it's normal activity limits

The Axis has to occupy all of France not just conquered France.


When Vichy France is declared
The French Minor countries and territories and the units there become Vichy French or Free French.
All naval units not in French ports rebase to the nearest French port (Vichy French or Free French) or are destroyed.
Face down naval units become Vichy French, Free French, or are destroyed depending where they are.
Half the units in the French force pools are removed.
Naval units on the production circle, in the construction pool, or repair pool become Vichy French and remain where they are.
Vichy France or Free France control the oil resource from Iraq and the non-oil resources from Hanoi, New Caledonia, and Senegal.
Vichy France uses the activity limits the conquering Major power.

Japan can align French Indo-china and Madagascar.

Free French can co-operate with the CW

The Axis only has to occupy conquered France.


I'm sure if I have misrepresented Incomplete conquest someone will correct me.
It has been some time but we discussed this before.

Summary of surrendering France
The Allies keep more of the Royals (French Navy).
French Minor countries, and territories, and their units are not effected.
France has only half it's normal activity limits.
France still cannot co-operate with the CW and establishes a new Home country.

Japan cannot align French Indo-china or Madagascar.

This is the counter for the Axis players occupying mainland France and not declaring Vichy France or Incomplete conquest of France.

If the Axis players hold Paris and is trying to incompletely conquer France. The French are probably only looking at 2 impulses before the Axis succeed.

2 impulses is not worth the loss of the French fleet.

ORIGINAL: Extraneous


If the Axis players hold Paris and is trying to incompletely conquer France. The French are probably only looking at 2 impulses before the Axis succeed.

2 impulses is not worth the loss of the French fleet.

The river line from Bordeaux can hold out for longer than 2 impulses if the Allies try. Taking Lyon is no cake walk either. The Toulouse hex is one of the toughest hexes in the game to take. If the Germans decline a Vichy, the CW should immediately pump in as many BPs as they can to build a French ART &/or MTN, while the French get their 3 best units into Toulouse. The Germans can be made to regret passing on a French peace offer.

But most Allies think they are playing strong in France while they fart around with a useless one hex BEF and pull BPs out of France until Paris is taken, then wring their hands at how easy it was for the Germans to take Gibraltar no matter how many heavy British capital ships are on the production spiral.

You don't want to go and lend BP to France once Paris has fallen: Germany can always wait on declaring Vichy, after all, so you're running the risk that they'll take those BP and add them to the Vichy forces. Send in more British units if you're amking a fight of it, but I wouldn't be cutting English production to make more French.


That being said, you do want to fight, and fight hard, if Germany is going for a full conquest. And if Paris falls M/J, it can be hard to hold on in J/A unless they've simply bypassed the bulk of the French army, as opposed the more usual method of just slaughtering their way through everything.

though I am used to alternative Vichy rules where the Germans make the choice, just once, that's not the same as the Germans taking Paris. Say Germany takes it in May/Jun and then doesn't set up Vichy in the Peace Step. that would be a clear indication they are going for conquest and then Spain. Perhaps a British loan the next turn might make them change their mind. might be a nice US Entry win for the CW if the Germans don't change their game strategy, declare Vichy and then collapse it. if they don't, and the BPs can reach a few French cities, a few more French units can be on the spiral, waiting... it's an aggressive CW move perhaps, but the Allies can play aggressively too. if they take that risk it might help hold the Germans at the Pyrenees. If Vichy gets a few extra BPs that won't matter much later. Or the Allies can go the traditional route and build an awesome Royal Navy while the Germans conquer Europe.

French production will fall off quick, but a few units in production might let them hold Toulouse for quite some time, if the Germans have to kill 3 units to take it and the French can replace a few losses. bad attack weather can descend at any time after August. An ART and MTN in Toulouse can give the Bosch quite a headache.

Either way, the French shouldn't surrender, and the fleet is not at that much risk. The Allies frequently manage to win the game without the French fleet somehow anyway.

It is also a good French move to rail a factory or two to Bordeaux before it is too late...


but if the Germans siege Toulouse and manage to take Bordeaux in this scenario, if the Allies want the French fleet they might need the French to surrender or it can't reorganize.

Just to get everyone on the same page.

In the forums we have discussed the Axis players occupying mainland France not declaring Vichy France and not declaring Incomplete conquest of France.

This would put any French reinforcements in limbo.

Because French reinforcements have to be placed in a French controlled city in the French home country.

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

Just to get everyone on the same page.

In the forums we have discussed the Axis players occupying mainland France not declaring Vichy France and not declaring Incomplete conquest of France.

This would put any French reinforcements in limbo.

Because French reinforcements have to be placed in a French controlled city in the French home country.

you don´t get the choice of conquest .. if you can conquer, it happens automatic

To conquer any other home country, you must control its capital plus every printed factory hex in that home country. You do not need to control a hex that only contains factories that were moved, or built, there.

One French controlled factory is all that is required to avoid Incomplete conquest.

I would not want to place 1 Land unit in say Nantes surrounded by Axis units.

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

To conquer any other home country, you must control its capital plus every printed factory hex in that home country. You do not need to control a hex that only contains factories that were moved, or built, there.

One French controlled factory is all that is required to avoid Incomplete conquest.

I would not want to place 1 Land unit in say Nantes surrounded by Axis units.

Which is precisely why the French have the option to surrender metropolitan France, and get on with the war by fighting from their colonies. Otherwise the Axis could just surround their last remaining city and all of their other forces would be paralyzed. Which is the answer to the question in the original post.

But the French still might want to reinforce that last city, if that city is keeping the Germans from crossing the Spanish frontier, or significantly impeding such a crossing while the Tommies hold the approaches to Bilbao.

ORIGINAL: brian brian

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

To conquer any other home country, you must control its capital plus every printed factory hex in that home country. You do not need to control a hex that only contains factories that were moved, or built, there.

One French controlled factory is all that is required to avoid Incomplete conquest.

I would not want to place 1 Land unit in say Nantes surrounded by Axis units.

Which is precisely why the French have the option to surrender metropolitan France, and get on with the war by fighting from their colonies. Otherwise the Axis could just surround their last remaining city and all of their other forces would be paralyzed. Which is the answer to the question in the original post.

But the French still might want to reinforce that last city, if that city is keeping the Germans from crossing the Spanish frontier, or significantly impeding such a crossing while the Tommies hold the approaches to Bilbao.

Agreed. If Toulouse is the last French city and Bordeau/Bayonne are still in CW/French control, I wouldn't surrender the French. That area blocks the road to Gibraltar.