Page 1 of 1
Improved quick start Barborossa set up
Posted: Sun Dec 22, 2013 9:12 pm
by Courtenay
I just tried playing the M/J turn of a quick start Barbarossa game. The Russians got overrun. They lost 27 ground units in one turn. Part of that was some mistakes on my part, and part was the weather going fair, fair, fair, fair, rain, fair in the Arctic, and part was the Germans being somewhat lucky, but part was the Russian set up.
The quick start Russian set up is bad. It gives up the Dvina river line for nothing; it has a pair of overrunable units on the front line, if the German ground strikes work; it has the Russian reserves set up in stacks, just asking for a German ground strikes; it has far too much strength in the south and not enough in the north; it has a weak reserve in Novgorod, just asking the Finns to take it, and it has a weak reserve in Pskov, when that is some of the best terrain the Russians have.
I have done a quick start setup here. This was my third iteration; each was better than its predecessor. I am sure it can be further improved, but it is certainly better than what comes with MWiF. (For one thing, there won't be an impulse one overrun. )
RE: Improved quick start Barborossa set up
Posted: Wed May 21, 2014 5:21 pm
by Courtenay
Here is a picture, for those who just want to look at it.
RE: Improved quick start Barborossa set up
Posted: Thu May 22, 2014 4:09 am
by Joseignacio
One of the bigger mysteries for me has always been the setup for the Barbarossa. I guess you remember you need to setup with 10 corps max 2 hexes away from German controlled Poland or Prussia and 10 to Romania.
Since you want to try to protect your most valuable units, like ARM, MECH, ... and you have such few units, it's a nightmare to decide which ones you'll sacrifice.
It can easily result in 27 dead corps (and probably the loss of the game, of course) if the climate keeps on being clear and the luck is bad.
How would you do it? I would be grateful for some ideas...
RE: Improved quick start Barborossa set up
Posted: Fri May 23, 2014 8:49 am
by Platon
I am trying the MWIF Barbarossa Fast Start Setup with Advanced Optional Rules and minor changes right now. I found that it could give the German quite a lot to worry about. Maybe we can give it a try on Netplay sometime?
RE: Improved quick start Barborossa set up
Posted: Fri May 23, 2014 9:46 am
by Joseignacio
Are you asking Courtenay or me? In case it's me, I think netplay is not working, am I wrong? And I don't like the homemade systems to "kind of" net play that I read about.
RE: Improved quick start Barborossa set up
Posted: Fri May 23, 2014 11:34 am
by Platon
Reply was originally to Courtenay but is valid for everybod interested. I haven't tried Netplay so far but I managed to connect to the Netplay Forum and posted a search request for Barbarossa under the name Ares. I shall see what happens next.
RE: Improved quick start Barborossa set up
Posted: Fri May 23, 2014 12:24 pm
by Courtenay
The setup I provided meets the garrison requirements, so you can see how I thought things should work.
The units on the Polish border itself are sacrifices. The units near, but not on, the border, are not sacrifices,
although I expect a fair number to die; I protected them against ground strikes as best I could by dispersal and by putting the best units in forests.
I don't think that mine is the best possible set up; it is the set up I came with after three iterations of improvements. I am certain it can be improved further.
If I did make a mistake with garrisons, please let me know. I did not take advantage of the spot where one unit can count for both the Polish and Rumanian garrisons, because I think that doing so is cheating.
RE: Improved quick start Barborossa set up
Posted: Fri May 23, 2014 2:44 pm
by Platon
Looks quite sound to me. Still i think I would prefer to use more double stacks placed in wood hexes. If only to give the German thoughts how to use his air force in Impulse One.
PS: Netplay is not ready to go yet?
RE: Improved quick start Barborossa set up
Posted: Fri May 23, 2014 4:32 pm
by paulderynck
No, NetPlay fixes are still in queue behind production and naval bug fixes.
RE: Improved quick start Barborossa set up
Posted: Sat May 24, 2014 6:20 pm
by rkr1958
ORIGINAL: Courtenay
I just tried playing the M/J turn of a quick start Barbarossa game. The Russians got overrun. They lost 27 ground units in one turn. Part of that was some mistakes on my part, and part was the weather going fair, fair, fair, fair, rain, fair in the Arctic, and part was the Germans being somewhat lucky, but part was the Russian set up.
The quick start Russian set up is bad. It gives up the Dvina river line for nothing; it has a pair of overrunable units on the front line, if the German ground strikes work; it has the Russian reserves set up in stacks, just asking for a German ground strikes; it has far too much strength in the south and not enough in the north; it has a weak reserve in Novgorod, just asking the Finns to take it, and it has a weak reserve in Pskov, when that is some of the best terrain the Russians have.
I have done a quick start setup here. This was my third iteration; each was better than its predecessor. I am sure it can be further improved, but it is certainly better than what comes with MWiF. (For one thing, there won't be an impulse one overrun. )
Just downloaded it. I want to give the Barbarossa scenario a try (again) so this was timely. What optional rules are you using?
RE: Improved quick start Barborossa set up
Posted: Sun May 25, 2014 11:01 pm
by rkr1958
I'm using the original quick start scenario for Barbarossa as a training scenario for learning how to attack. Apparently I don't need to move up to a more "balanced" setup until I can win with the original setup. Once I can win, then I plan to move up to the challenge of the more balance step up (i.e., Courtenay's).
Learning to play MWiF (WiF) is a challenge. Learning to play it competently is turning out to be hard, but very fun, work (play). I can't image trying to do this without the computer. I'm in awe of you guys that learned, and are still playing, on cardboard and paper. Not to mention the space all that must take up!
RE: Improved quick start Barborossa set up
Posted: Mon May 26, 2014 10:41 am
by Courtenay
I use the same rules for the quick start set up as the original quick start.
RE: Improved quick start Barborossa set up
Posted: Tue May 27, 2014 3:37 am
by Joseignacio
ORIGINAL: Courtenay
The setup I provided meets the garrison requirements, so you can see how I thought things should work.
The units on the Polish border itself are sacrifices. The units near, but not on, the border, are not sacrifices,
although I expect a fair number to die; I protected them against ground strikes as best I could by dispersal and by putting the best units in forests.
I don't think that mine is the best possible set up; it is the set up I came with after three iterations of improvements. I am certain it can be improved further.
If I did make a mistake with garrisons, please let me know. I did not take advantage of the spot where one unit can count for both the Polish and Rumanian garrisons, because I think that doing so is cheating.
Sorry, I thought the one you were posting was MWIF's default, and I didn't look very much at it.
Now that I do, I don't like it too much. The usual competent german player behavior is to bomb, taking advantage of surprise, all the good and reachable units close to the border, in order to immobilize them.
In this aspect, I don't like having two units in ANY stack, much less those not in woods/marsh. I wouldn´t set e units in Kaunas, Odessa, or ¿Timisoara? (the city in clear in Bessarabia. I would have doubts about the city southeast of Lvov in forest.
On the good side, IIRW, the germans can only deploy in Romania one 2-factor bomber, so it's not so bad but...
Anyway, I would NEVER leave the minimal chance that the armors and mechs can be deactivated, son I wouldn't leave the mech at odessa or the arm south of Dniester. Can't see if there are more of these in the lower part of the stacks...