Page 1 of 2
Possible bug? No Neilson if you please
Posted: Sat Jan 04, 2014 4:01 pm
by Geordie Boy
Ok some of my Japanese bases are being attacked by air or sea and are then left with 0 supplies in them, my boys are leaving everything on a plate for Allied bombers to destroy. Cant play on with this. Whats the point of moving supplies around to be lost in a single action? Only seems to have appeared in the latest parch 23/12/13. Help!
Mike
RE: Possible bug? No Neilson if you please
Posted: Sat Jan 04, 2014 4:50 pm
by Geordie Boy
For instance I've been stockpiling supplies at Donggala by sub transport/transport planes, got to about 350 supplies, a passing American carrier launched a minor raid, got 30% airfield damage but all the supllies had gone! Voom zero, zilch, nothing. All that effort and my boys couldnt be bothered to disperse/camoflauge/fortify my supplies. This has only started recently so may eb the 23rd December update. Anyone else noticed this? Roger and i are up to May 44 but if this is a bug or worse the game promotes this, there is no point continuing!!
RE: Possible bug? No Neilson if you please
Posted: Sat Jan 04, 2014 4:55 pm
by witpqs
350 supply is a very small amount. Can be easily destroyed in a single attack.
RE: Possible bug? No Neilson if you please
Posted: Sat Jan 04, 2014 7:03 pm
by Geordie Boy
ORIGINAL: witpqs
350 supply is a very small amount. Can be easily destroyed in a single attack.
Yes small amount but how destroyed in single attack? Who would put it all in a big pile to be destroyed? Supplies are dispersed, hidden and dug in. It was only 10-20 Dauntless's and several months hard work gone. Voom. This isnt the only incident, its happened on other bases too. Totally unrealistic. And makes the game unplayable. Only just started to happen so think its Dec 23rd upgrade. Is this a new 'feature' or a bug?
RE: Possible bug? No Neilson if you please
Posted: Sat Jan 04, 2014 7:20 pm
by erstad
Only just started to happen so think its Dec 23rd upgrade.
In AE the amount of supplies destroyed has a random, but is basically a function of the device causing the damage. AFAIK (and according to at least one dev post) there is not a dependence on the amount of supplies present. This is either a day 1 or very early patch item. (Witp-Classic had a different behavior)
As noted, 350 supplies is very little.
Also note that supplies can be sucked into LCUs so if the LCUs were involved in combat the supplies could be in the LCUs. You might compare the total supply at the base pre/post attack.
RE: Possible bug? No Neilson if you please
Posted: Sat Jan 04, 2014 7:58 pm
by witpqs
As erstad noted there is absolutely nothing new about this behavior. The 'effect' of the weapon that hits influences how much supply it might destroy. Bigger bombs, shells, etc. destroy more, on average, than smaller ones.
RE: Possible bug? No Neilson if you please
Posted: Sun Jan 05, 2014 6:36 am
by Geordie Boy
ORIGINAL: witpqs
As erstad noted there is absolutely nothing new about this behavior. The 'effect' of the weapon that hits influences how much supply it might destroy. Bigger bombs, shells, etc. destroy more, on average, than smaller ones.
The game in question is up to May 1944 and may even be the longest running IRL. Started in 2007 when AE came out. and this behaviour has just started trust me. The base in question is behind enemy lines and building quietly for a nice suprise for the allies. i'd 'accumulated' 350 supplies by sub transport and transport plane. Then a carrier TF passed and randonly flew a few Daunlesses attack it, and everything had GONE. This has happened on other bases recently. Something has obviously changed in a recent patch. If it had been attacked by BB's, 4E's etc in a prolonged manner well maybe some of the supplies would have been lost. But the WHOLE lot with 10 or so Dauntlesses?
RE: Possible bug? No Neilson if you please
Posted: Sun Jan 05, 2014 7:11 am
by CT Grognard
If I recall correctly, a supply hit destroys supply equal to a random percentage of the anti-soft rating of the device hitting.
Therefore, in the case of a 1000-lb SAP bomb from a Dauntless, the maximum supplies a supply hit can destroy would be 49 (but on average half that).
Check your combat report and see how many supply hits there were?
Furthermore, as has been pointed out by other posters on this thread, your LCU's probably soaked up supplies as well. Also note that supply would have been expended on air-to-air fire against the Dauntless raid.
RE: Possible bug? No Neilson if you please
Posted: Sun Jan 05, 2014 10:25 am
by Geordie Boy
ORIGINAL: CT Grognard
If I recall correctly, a supply hit destroys supply equal to a random percentage of the anti-soft rating of the device hitting.
Therefore, in the case of a 1000-lb SAP bomb from a Dauntless, the maximum supplies a supply hit can destroy would be 49 (but on average half that).
Check your combat report and see how many supply hits there were?
Furthermore, as has been pointed out by other posters on this thread, your LCU's probably soaked up supplies as well. Also note that supply would have been expended on air-to-air fire against the Dauntless raid.
Ok thanks CT, below is the attack that completley wiped out my supplies. Clearly the game at the moment does not distinguish if there are 100000 or 10 supplies in a base, the bomber always gets through to hit those supplies. No matter how few they are, they are earmarked for destruction. This is silly! My boys in Donggala were all fully supplied and cant imagine they through away 350 supplies in an orgy of AA fire. Think the game is broken. I've been playing with Roger on this game for nearly seven years lol, so this is a crying shame.
Afternoon Air attack on Donggala , at 68,99
Weather in hex: Overcast
Raid spotted at 6 NM, estimated altitude 7,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 2 minutes
Allied aircraft
F6F-3 Hellcat x 29
TBM-1C Avenger x 11
Allied aircraft losses
TBM-1C Avenger: 1 damaged
Airbase hits 1
Airbase supply hits 2
Runway hits 6
RE: Possible bug? No Neilson if you please
Posted: Sun Jan 05, 2014 10:34 am
by CT Grognard
IIRC correctly, the TBM-1C Avenger carries four 500lb GP bombs?
Remember, the smaller the airfield the more likely that bombs will hit the supply.
That being said, if I am applying this right, the two 500lb GP bomb hits could have destroyed a maximum of 76 supplies.
RE: Possible bug? No Neilson if you please
Posted: Sun Jan 05, 2014 1:58 pm
by witpqs
Was there a separate attack by "10-20 Dauntless's", or was this the only attack?
What about the answer to erstad's question about the amount of supply in each of the LCU?
What was the state of each LCU pre and post attack?
Did the LCUs 'repair' any disabled squads/devices? (That consumes supply.)
Did the LCUs receive any replacement squads/devices? (That consumes supply.)
BTW, the supply in the LCUs is the supply that is dispersed. The supply in the base is the supply dump(s).
RE: Possible bug? No Neilson if you please
Posted: Sun Jan 05, 2014 5:22 pm
by Bullwinkle58
ORIGINAL: Geordie Boy
The game in question is up to May 1944 and may even be the longest running IRL. Started in 2007 when AE came out.
The game shipped in July 2009.
RE: Possible bug? No Neilson if you please
Posted: Tue Jan 07, 2014 2:53 am
by erstad
ORIGINAL: CT Grognard
If I recall correctly, a supply hit destroys supply equal to a random percentage of the anti-soft rating of the device hitting.
According to the last dev post I saw on the topic, it's between 1 and (effect*anti-soft)/100
RE: Possible bug? No Neilson if you please
Posted: Tue Jan 07, 2014 5:46 pm
by LoBaron
ORIGINAL: witpqs
Was there a separate attack by "10-20 Dauntless's", or was this the only attack?
What about the answer to erstad's question about the amount of supply in each of the LCU?
What was the state of each LCU pre and post attack?
Did the LCUs 'repair' any disabled squads/devices? (That consumes supply.)
Did the LCUs receive any replacement squads/devices? (That consumes supply.)
BTW, the supply in the LCUs is the supply that is dispersed. The supply in the base is the supply dump(s).
This.
Hint: If you don´t want your AA to shoot at stuff, set the units to reserve mode. They wont do anything then, but also will not use supplies in combat. They will repair disablements though.
350 supply is next to nothing. You would not have achieved much with that ammount anyway.
The game is not broken, it is just how things work. Strange you only notice after that ammount of time playing. What you experience though, admittedly, is also a sideeffect of the way WitP abstracts supply. It is ammo, spare parts, AVgas, toilet paper, or canned beef. If you shoot your guns you lose the canned beef at the same time.
RE: Possible bug? No Neilson if you please
Posted: Wed Jan 08, 2014 4:13 pm
by obvert
It does suck that the way the program works ALL supply can be destroyed very easily. Even when it is a lot more than the paltry 350 here. So although this is a poor example, the premise holds. The way AE continues to use the same calculation throughout a turn means that it does not become less likely to hit the same amount of supply with each hit. It is just as likely as the last time. So if a bomb can destroy 10 supply, it'll destroy 10 supply whether there is 20k in the base or only 20 total in relatively the same spot. Fortification may help, but it certainly doesn't seem to help much.
Fortified positions in the war could fight for months while isolated and without replenishment. yes, they capitulated eventually, but it wasn't due to bombing. It was about a grinding campaign on the ground, day by day. This game doesn't replicate that very well. A few naval bombardments and a few bombing runs and if you're on an island, you're out of supply.
It is what it is, and although you won't realize until you've played through a whole game, supply usage and destruction will determine the outcome of most battles. If you can't bring more in, get troops out.
RE: Possible bug? No Neilson if you please
Posted: Wed Jan 08, 2014 4:15 pm
by witpqs
ORIGINAL: obvert
It does suck that the way the program works ALL supply can be destroyed very easily. Even when it is a lot more than the paltry 350 here. So although this is a poor example, the premise holds. The way AE continues to use the same calculation throughout a turn means that it does not become less likely to hit the same amount of supply with each hit. It is just as likely as the last time. So if a bomb can destroy 10 supply, it'll destroy 10 supply whether there is 20k in the base or only 20 total in relatively the same spot. Fortification may help, but it certainly doesn't seem to help much.
Fortified positions in the war could fight for months while isolated and without replenishment. yes, they capitulated eventually, but it wasn't due to bombing. It was about a grinding campaign on the ground, day by day. This game doesn't replicate that very well. A few naval bombardments and a few bombing runs and if you're on an island, you're out of supply.
It is what it is, and although you won't realize until you've played through a whole game, supply usage and destruction will determine the outcome of most battles. If you can't bring more in, get troops out.
Has Michael (or another developer) confirmed that is true?
RE: Possible bug? No Neilson if you please
Posted: Wed Jan 08, 2014 7:12 pm
by Gaspote
The level of the base also affect how many supplies are lost so it was a low level hex ?
RE: Possible bug? No Neilson if you please
Posted: Wed Jan 08, 2014 7:53 pm
by LoBaron
No Gaspote, but forts influence the chance of supply hits. The higher the forts the lower the chance.
Obvert, as has been mentioned already, the problem for the OP is most probably not the supply hits themseves, but the supply consumption by his units (through all channels listed by witpqs). Fortified positions CAN fight for months while isolated in game, but they require a couple of things that seldom happen in this game: A force balance in relation to the opposition that enables continued resistance in the first place, and players who understand how to use op modes to avoid inflated supply consumption, who mass huge ammounts of supplies at the concerned loacations neglecting the base spoilage cap, and expand those bases to enhance the cap limit. Very seldom.
Most seem to think a 1/2 base with lvl3 forts and 10k supplies is Bataan...
RE: Possible bug? No Neilson if you please
Posted: Wed Jan 08, 2014 11:17 pm
by erstad
ORIGINAL: witpqs
ORIGINAL: obvert
It does suck that the way the program works ALL supply can be destroyed very easily. Even when it is a lot more than the paltry 350 here. So although this is a poor example, the premise holds. The way AE continues to use the same calculation throughout a turn means that it does not become less likely to hit the same amount of supply with each hit. It is just as likely as the last time. So if a bomb can destroy 10 supply, it'll destroy 10 supply whether there is 20k in the base or only 20 total in relatively the same spot. Fortification may help, but it certainly doesn't seem to help much.
Fortified positions in the war could fight for months while isolated and without replenishment. yes, they capitulated eventually, but it wasn't due to bombing. It was about a grinding campaign on the ground, day by day. This game doesn't replicate that very well. A few naval bombardments and a few bombing runs and if you're on an island, you're out of supply.
It is what it is, and although you won't realize until you've played through a whole game, supply usage and destruction will determine the outcome of most battles. If you can't bring more in, get troops out.
Has Michael (or another developer) confirmed that is true?
Essentially, yes. See the michaelm post in this 2010 thread:
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/printable.asp?m=2619561
I would read his formula as a base number, which *maybe* gets modulated by forts or terrain; but there's certainly nothing that suggests any sort of diminishing returns. Although I suppose one could argue his post doesn't preclude that either.
RE: Possible bug? No Neilson if you please
Posted: Fri Jan 10, 2014 5:27 am
by Geordie Boy
ORIGINAL: obvert
It does suck that the way the program works ALL supply can be destroyed very easily. Even when it is a lot more than the paltry 350 here. So although this is a poor example, the premise holds. The way AE continues to use the same calculation throughout a turn means that it does not become less likely to hit the same amount of supply with each hit. It is just as likely as the last time. So if a bomb can destroy 10 supply, it'll destroy 10 supply whether there is 20k in the base or only 20 total in relatively the same spot. Fortification may help, but it certainly doesn't seem to help much.
Fortified positions in the war could fight for months while isolated and without replenishment. yes, they capitulated eventually, but it wasn't due to bombing. It was about a grinding campaign on the ground, day by day. This game doesn't replicate that very well. A few naval bombardments and a few bombing runs and if you're on an island, you're out of supply.
It is what it is, and although you won't realize until you've played through a whole game, supply usage and destruction will determine the outcome of most battles. If you can't bring more in, get troops out.
Yes Obvert this is precisely what is happening in a number of bases in my game. In this case it was the single attack of a few Avenger's which wiped everything out from 350 to zero, no dispersion, no camo - the bombers just made a bee line to the supply and it was gone.