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In a spin off of the 4E/Heavy Bomber crew size discussions in the VP thread, I was reminded of something I have never really understood.

Why was it in WWII that a carrier based torpedo plane typically had a crew of 3, but a dive bomber a crew of 2 ?

ORIGINAL: catwhoorg

In a spin off of the 4E/Heavy Bomber crew size discussions in the VP thread, I was reminded of something I have never really understood.

Why was it in WWII that a carrier based torpedo plane typically had a crew of 3, but a dive bomber a crew of 2 ?

Torpedo's are tricky things to aim, so there was a dedicated man to aim it, and often navigate the aircraft when not actually in action (so most of the time). In dive-bombers, the bomb aiming is done mostly by the pilot positioning the aircraft.

Showing my ignorance, but isn't the aiming of the torpedo basically pointing the aircraft ?

ORIGINAL: catwhoorg

Showing my ignorance, but isn't the aiming of the torpedo basically pointing the aircraft ?

Aircraft height, aircraft speed, angle to the target, target speed, time for the torpedo to reach the target...all while trying to man a machine gun to keep fighters off the rear of the aircraft.

That's why they put that third person in.

Thanks MM, that clarifies it.

Plus to also watch the wave action as to not drop the fish into a broaching wave face and cause it to go astray.

ORIGINAL: catwhoorg

Thanks MM, that clarifies it.

Those hours invested in the Silent Hunter series haven't been totally wasted. It's hard enough aiming torpedos for a submarine, doing it while flying must be something else!

As to underscore this, single seat fighters very seldom navigated on their own but relied upon bombers to do it for them as there is only so much you can do with two hands. Additionally, the British resisted putting one seat fighters on their CVs for a long time due to this very problem. Also the USN up until recently really liked two seat fighters (Tomcat being the last). I guess with modern electronics this concept is now fading from history! (and so too pilots if I read the tea leaves correctly!) Hal

A major problem that confronted the US forces in the PIs was that the Army couldn't operate it's fighters to far offshore because they weren't trained for it. The CVs were stuck protecting the landings even after airfields were up and running. Of course Marines were brought in to help with the problem.

I don't think the third crew member aimed the torpedo. From everything I have read, that was the pilot's job. TBDs only carried the third crew member for land bombing missions. There were some small doors just in front of the tip of the torpedo (when carried). On land bombing missions those doors were opened and the guy in the middle cockpit had a bomb site that aimed out that door. The TBF had a window in the back of the bomb bay with a bomb site for the guy down in the belly, though in practice the pilot dropped the ordinance most of the time when carrying bombs. The TBF-1 also had a set of controls in the middle cockpit and the guy in the belly could crawl up there and use them if the pilot was incapacitated, but that too was dropped. On subsequent versions of the TBF there wasn't even a seat in that position.

Japanese torpedo bombers also had a bombsite setup for the guy in the center cockpit. The Jill also had a downward firing gun in the back of the fuselage that could be used by the middle cockpit guy. It must have been tough to get to.

Bill

Wasn't a TB crew essentially made up of - pilot/bomber, radio man (navigator) & gunner?

In tb, the navigator is the torpedo officer because TB are like level bombers not dive bomber. It's impossible for the pilot to aim correcty.

Um, it is well documented that all TBDs at Midway only had a crew of two. I haven't found much information on Coral Sea, but what I have seen indicates the TBDs were flying with a crew of two then too.

Additionally, the crew positions in a TBF/TBM only had one crew member with any forward visibility at all: the pilot. The guy behind the bombay could see a little forward at an angle, but he could not see a ship on a torpedo run. The radio operator/navigator could climb up between the turret and pilot on the TBF-1, but the seat there was eliminated late in the -1 production run. That bay was filled with electronics and there was no way for a crew member to get up there.

I have also read many accounts of torpedo drops by US and British pilots. It's always the pilot who aims and releases the torpedo.

I don't know about Japanese doctrine, but I suspect it was the same as the west.

I believe torpedo bombers had the third crew member because doctrine called for mixed strike packages and since the torpedo bomber had the least need to maneuver, it could most afford the third crew member and it was the torpedo bomber's role to navigate for the entire formation. In practice it didn't work out that way. In the USN even single engine fighter pilots were making long range strikes with no other aircraft. By the time of the Battle of the Philippine Sea, the US was using F6F as regular bombers, even in the anti-shipping strike role.

USN fighter pilots were pulling off feats nobody else thought possible at war's start. The USN and USMC were also the only forces in the world to operate single seat, single engine, radar equipped night fighters. The USN fighters were landing and taking off from a carrier in the dark.

I could be wrong, but I think the pilot had complete control over the torpedo.

Bill

FWIW, I recall reading GHW Bush's recollections of being shot down. He lost two crewmen that he was with in his TBM. It was a land bombing (radar installation) mission over Chichi Jima.

Reading George Gay's account, he only had the gunner with him.
 
Bill's on the mark regarding the 3rd crewman.
 
Ed-

For those who think the middle crewman aimed the torpedo, what is your source?

ORIGINAL: Ralzakark

For those who think the middle crewman aimed the torpedo, what is your source?

The fact that in most of the planes, the title of the middle crewman was "Torpedo officer" or something simmilar.

I've typically seen the third crew member referred to as a bombardier, but not a torpedo officer. Referring to him as the bombardier may support the idea stated above that the third crewmember was most needed on bombing runs, not torpedo runs.

Mike

In the case of the Japanese , the middle crewman navigated , had a bomb sight and did level bombing as a bombardier. He often was an officer , and strike leaders would frequently fly in this position. In the case of the USN the middle seat was usually an aviation ordanceman . The USN had no officer navigators till the early 1960s. In patrol planes this role was filled by an off duty pilot , and in one engine planes the aviation radio man (usually also a gunner) was given navigation training. If an actual bombardier was needed , an aviation ordanceman did the job as they had all dealings with ordance of every kind. Later when RADAR was installed , the 'ordie" was often replaced by an airborne RADAR operator , or might be given some training in this field. USN aircrewmen , then as now , were specialist , but expected to cross train in other "rates" .

I'm thinking torpedo get a torpedo officer because in B5N, during the attack of Pearl Harbor they send bomber with 900kg in level bombing and the guy aiming was the torpedo officer.

In TBF the ventral gunner was the torpedo officer, a ventral gunner isn't necessary at 100m.



We can see the gunsight and which seems to be the radar too.


But I'm pretty sure they didn't use a torpedo officer for every mission like naval search or skip bombing mission.