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US TO&E
Posted: Mon Feb 17, 2014 11:30 pm
by Sabre21
I noticed a missing Bradley from each of the companies in the 3rd Herd scenario of 21 July 1989. There should be 14, not 13 per company. The Hq has two, one for the Co and one for the Xo. The 1SG rides in the M113.
I know this is miniscule but wanted a thread for any thing I might find.
RE: US TO&E
Posted: Tue Feb 18, 2014 1:17 am
by Mad Russian
In the scenarios I created you can't go by full strength TO&E. In many of them I short units of various equipment at various times. There are few scenarios where all the units are at full strength. In some scenarios the TO&E's have been ravaged by previous combats.
Good Hunting.
MR
RE: US TO&E
Posted: Tue Feb 18, 2014 10:00 am
by Sabre21
I kind of figured that might have been the case, just odd that every company was missing the same vehicle and were all at the same strength.
RE: US TO&E
Posted: Tue Feb 18, 2014 6:34 pm
by Mad Russian
In that case, we could be missing the vehicle in the TO&E. Jim worked on the data base from long before I got here to at least until midnight last night. That is a beast that is never caged. Just when you think you might actually have a solid working model you get more information and get to tweak it all over again.
In my life I've done a tremendous amount of research on unit orders of battle and TO&E's (ORBATS). In the process I learned along the way that few of them are ever set in stone.
Good Hunting.
MR
RE: US TO&E
Posted: Tue Feb 18, 2014 9:38 pm
by Sabre21
ORIGINAL: Mad Russian
In that case, we could be missing the vehicle in the TO&E. Jim worked on the data base from long before I got here to at least until midnight last night. That is a beast that is never caged. Just when you think you might actually have a solid working model you get more information and get to tweak it all over again.
In my life I've done a tremendous amount of research on unit orders of battle and TO&E's (ORBATS). In the process I learned along the way that few of them are ever set in stone.
Good Hunting.
MR
I hear ya. I've done a lot of the same. Back in the day long before the internet was such a good source of info I wrote up a 1989 Nato/Wp OOB covering all of the countries involved and that was a chore. I still have a lot of the original source material I used back then sitting here collecting dust.
By the way, there is a typo in your 12B scenario. About the 4th or so paragraph down you wrote to call the 11B's...lol..I know you meant to write 12B's. Before I went to flight school I was an 11B3V.
RE: US TO&E
Posted: Wed Feb 19, 2014 2:28 pm
by 22sec
Any chance you are the Andy Johnson?
RE: US TO&E
Posted: Thu Feb 20, 2014 11:21 pm
by Sabre21
ORIGINAL: 21SEC
Any chance you are the Andy Johnson?
I'm not sure I should answer this one but yea, last time I looked that was my name. I don't think I have any kids in Jackson, at least not any I know of
RE: US TO&E
Posted: Fri Feb 21, 2014 12:12 am
by 22sec
Your OOBs are still on my hard drive, and can still be found floating around the internet. In fact someone expanded the NATO one.
RE: US TO&E
Posted: Fri Feb 21, 2014 1:44 am
by Sabre21
ORIGINAL: 21SEC
Your OOBs are still on my hard drive, and can still be found floating around the internet. In fact someone expanded the NATO one.
I'm glad to hear someone still uses them. When I made them the internet was still in its infancy and sources were pretty limited. About the only OOB's I knew were rock solid were the US Army and National Guard considering I got that data right from the Army historical center and National Guard Bureau.
The rest of the OOB's came from where I could scrap them from, a lot of Jane's and stuff like that. Fortunately as the internet evolved and better sources of info came available, some folks took it upon themselves to fix what I started and really did improve upon it. I still have copies myself.
These guys here are doing a good job with this game and I'm looking forward to seeing plenty of expansions providing Rob don't keel over on us [:D]
RE: US TO&E
Posted: Fri Feb 21, 2014 10:33 am
by Mad Russian
I believe I used those for the basis of my own OOB's. I have made changes to them as I come across them but they are great starting points. As you said, it would be a shame to let all that research effort go to waste.
Good Hunting.
MR
RE: US TO&E
Posted: Fri Feb 21, 2014 11:30 am
by JohnOs
Ok, I'll bite, "Who is Andy Johnson"? and what OOB did he build and can I get it?
UPDATE: Now I know who you are, NATO OOB 1989 [:)]
RE: US TO&E
Posted: Fri Feb 21, 2014 12:22 pm
by Sabre21
ORIGINAL: JohnO
Ok, I'll bite, "Who is Andy Johnson"? and what OOB did he build and can I get it?
UPDATE: Now I know who you are, NATO OOB 1989 [:)]
Yep that's me..I also have a WP OOB dated the same. I just wish over the years someone would have updated it as
Pat Callahan did with the Nato one. He did a tremendous amount of updating including adding in all the pictures
and maps.
RE: US TO&E
Posted: Fri Feb 21, 2014 12:33 pm
by JohnOs
Yep, I got that one too, had both on my hard drive for years. In fact I'm using it, when building my scenario. One thing that I want to do is build a scenario with East Germans fighting against the West German. I'm working on a East German user database after I finish the user database for 1-36IN BN campaign. Can't find much information on the East Germans.
RE: US TO&E
Posted: Fri Feb 21, 2014 12:50 pm
by Sabre21
ORIGINAL: JohnO
Yep, I got that one too, had both on my hard drive for years. In fact I'm using it, when building my scenario. One thing that I want to do is build a scenario with East Germans fighting against the West German. I'm working on a East German user database after I finish the user database for 1-36IN BN campaign. Can't find much information on the East Germans.
I'm not sure what you might need to know. There were 2 East German Armies, the 5th and the 3rd if I remember right. Each had a Tank division with T-72's and BMP 2's and should use the same organization as the Soviet tank division. No 2S6's though, they still only had ZSU 23-4's at the time and SA-13's/Sa-9's at regimental level.
The motorized divisions still had T-55's as their main battle tank and BTR-60's, BMP 1's, and even BTR-50's. They didn't have much in the way of modern equipment in the motorized divisions. What's interesting though is that they had a better maintenance record than their Soviet counterparts did despite the antiquated equipment. These divisions would have the same organization as the Soviet MRD's.
I would definitely use an E German tank division TO&E vs the W Germanns to make things more equitable. Although you could use a German territorial unit equipped with Leopard 1's rather than a regular army unit.
RE: US TO&E
Posted: Fri Feb 21, 2014 11:04 pm
by Mad Russian
Somewhere I thought I remembered that it was stated not to make changes to those. I have both of them as well and have steadily updated them as I went. They are the basis for my OOB's for both sides.
I would like to personally thank you for taking the time to put those together. They weren't my last stop on the road to scenario creation but they were my first stop. Outstanding work!! [&o]
Good Hunting.
MR
RE: US TO&E
Posted: Sat Feb 22, 2014 12:47 am
by Sabre21
I appreciate the comments guys. I made it primarily as a result of TOAW III when it first came out ages ago when Erik was working on it back during the Talonsoft forum days. I made it for gamers to update their OOB's and left it on the internet for anyone to use. It's pretty interesting to see how far it has come and am glad that people are still using them both.
RE: US TO&E
Posted: Sat Feb 22, 2014 9:39 am
by JohnOs
What I menat to say, was finding information about the East Germans units, like patches, history of the unit, when I do a scenario or campaign, I like to know what kind of units they were. Makes building the scenarios or campaigns interesting when you know the history.
ORIGINAL: Sabre21
ORIGINAL: JohnO
Yep, I got that one too, had both on my hard drive for years. In fact I'm using it, when building my scenario. One thing that I want to do is build a scenario with East Germans fighting against the West German. I'm working on a East German user database after I finish the user database for 1-36IN BN campaign. Can't find much information on the East Germans.
I'm not sure what you might need to know. There were 2 East German Armies, the 5th and the 3rd if I remember right. Each had a Tank division with T-72's and BMP 2's and should use the same organization as the Soviet tank division. No 2S6's though, they still only had ZSU 23-4's at the time and SA-13's/Sa-9's at regimental level.
The motorized divisions still had T-55's as their main battle tank and BTR-60's, BMP 1's, and even BTR-50's. They didn't have much in the way of modern equipment in the motorized divisions. What's interesting though is that they had a better maintenance record than their Soviet counterparts did despite the antiquated equipment. These divisions would have the same organization as the Soviet MRD's.
I would definitely use an E German tank division TO&E vs the W Germanns to make things more equitable. Although you could use a German territorial unit equipped with Leopard 1's rather than a regular army unit.
RE: US TO&E
Posted: Sat Feb 22, 2014 11:13 am
by CapnDarwin
You can add my name to the list of people who have multiple versions of both the NATO and WP OOBs in my source info file. Great work.
RE: US TO&E
Posted: Sat Feb 22, 2014 3:06 pm
by Sabre21
ORIGINAL: JohnO
What I menat to say, was finding information about the East Germans units, like patches, history of the unit, when I do a scenario or campaign, I like to know what kind of units they were. Makes building the scenarios or campaigns interesting when you know the history.
I agree, knowing more of those you face was always of interest to me. When I was in the 3rd ID, our main foe was the 8th Guards Army. When I gave Threat training, on occasion I would go into the history of the 8th Guards Army and trace it back to the Stalingrad days. I think some of my fellow pilots thought I was a commie at heart
I couldn't help you much though on the East German unit histories. I can't say for certain the individual divisions were derived from the former Wehrmacht or not. The W Germans shouldn't be too hard since both the Heer and the Luftwaffe maintained former unit histories.
RE: US TO&E
Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2014 4:04 pm
by IronMikeGolf
What about field ambulances for line companies in Inf Bns (not so much for combat capabilities as VPs the Soviet can reap)? Oh, and the 4.2 plt? FISTV? I was not in 3d Herd (1-509 mid 80s, 8ID and 1AD early and mid 90s), but I'd expect a D Co equipped with M901s.