Matrix Games Forums

Hi everyone,

I just bought this game a few days ago, and so far it seems great. One of the key things that helped me justify spending the money was the obvious passion of all the people on this forum, so great job!

I am new to the genre, and also don't know a huge amount about the tactics of modern naval forces (post WWII, and so have found a few things a bit hard to be sure I am doing correctly (coupled with a lack of familiarity with the UI etc, it is causing me some challenges, and i'd be grateful for some help.

I've played the tutorials and the scenario "Stand Up" as RN, and everything went well.
Next I played the scenario "Duelists", again as RN (I am a Brit, and liked the idea of RN vs Soviet Navy)

This didn't go very well. Several of my ships were sunk after being hit by missiles, and due to some fairly strict EMCON, I wasn't aware of them until too late.
I had and AEW helo in a forward position and using active radar, and could see the enemy main fleet, so I don't think they can have come from here.
Is having this AEW helo active correct, or should it have been passive? And should it have been closer in to my own fleet?

Anyway, I had detected very briefly an enemy sub with my own sub, then lostt it (despite dropping some sonobouys, and stopping my own nearby sub to better hear on passive sonar. I assume the missiles came from this, after it worked closer to my fleet - does this sounds right?

I had some ASW patrols up with my ASW helos, covering the likely axis of approach, plus some ships on ASW duty closer in. The helos had sonar active, the ships passive only, since they were near my main fleet and I didn't want to advertise their position.
Are the helos automatically stopping at points on the ASW patrol to use dipping sonar, or do I need to manually stop them, etc?

More broadly I am a bit confused overall about how to be sure I am using missions correctly. For example, will the ASW ships automatically drift a bit to allow better passive sonar reception, or will they just patrol the area at a set speed? Or will planes on strike missions automatically try to fly under radar, or do I need to set this? (Or is flying under radar not even a tactic used in this era?

I also sent a couple of harriers forward to investigate an enemy helo picked up by my AEW. I wanted visual identification. It seemed they had to fly to 0 nm to get this, is this correct, it seems very close. In addition, they identified it as hostile and shot it down immediately, making me the aggressor here, which was not my plan from my orders, which said something about showing the flag. Is this a bug?

Finally (for now!) - What does showing the flag mean - would this go as far as moving the actual fleet within visual range of the enemy fleet, or would a real commander in this situation stand well off and simply send some scouts? (aircraft?) I want to role play this (and all scenarios) as much as possible in how these would play out if they were real.

Thanks in advance, really appreciate any help, and please feel free to offer any small pieces of advice, I don't need detailed answers to every question from you, every little helps.

Al.

Welcome aboard, Al!

"...show the flag..." can mean a lot of things. Just having your carrier group there is showing the flag. The main part of the orders basically instructs you to hold fire until attacked; then you can wage unrestricted (no nukes )warfare against the Soviets. The idea is to provoke them as you don't want to wait around for an attack. You can get this done by sending one of your Harriers within range of their SAG. They will fire at you. Just make sure that you have your ROE set so that the Harrier will not instigate action. I believe it should already be set that way.

Before you start the game, take a look at the weapons arrayed against you. The orders tell you that you will be facing certain surface, sub-surface and air units. Check the database to see the maximum range of these weapons. Use this to proctect your assets. By this I mean, do not sail directly into the path of the Soviets until you have a grip on the situation. This will keep you out of reach of their surface and sub-surface units.

RAF Lossiemouth and RAF Kinloss have assets you will want to get into play early. It is better to use the heavier AEW assest and get the Nimrods out ahead of your fleet to look for the subs. Also, get your Harrier CAPs in a position to intercept any Soviet AEW or bombers coming around the apse of Norway. Try to kill their AEW assests. It will serve you to keep them as blind as possible.

Your AEW assets should be out there banging away on their radars. Otherwise they're kind of useless. Keep them in range of your Harrier CAPs so the Harriers can protect them.

Use your helo ASW assets to protect close in once the Nimrods are on scene.

When your reasonable sure that you've been spotted, turn on your fleets radars. They don't all have to be on. Just enough to see what's going on. If you are under attack, turn them all on and don't forget the jammers.

These tactics have worked for me. Have fun. I know I didn't cover all your questions. I'm sure some others will pitch in.

Good hunting!

Hi Alcamatraz and welcome,

All of what Zathras mentioned was right one, but as to your statement:

I had some ASW patrols up with my ASW helos, covering the likely axis of approach, plus some ships on ASW duty closer in. The helos had sonar active, the ships passive only, since they were near my main fleet and I didn't want to advertise their position.
Are the helos automatically stopping at points on the ASW patrol to use dipping sonar, or do I need to manually stop them, etc?

I've found from the community that you have to create reference points and create an ASW mission for your ASW Helos to patrol and yes, they will automatically dip their sonars in the designated area so that's one less thing you have to micromanage.

Good luck to you and the more you play the better tactics you will develop. I know that I seem to learn something new with each game I play and believe me, it's humbling to realize how little I knew coming into this game after considering myself an expert at all versions of Harpoon! I think the phrase is: "It's what you learn after you think you know it all that counts." [:D]

Thanks a lot to both thus spoke Zathras, and to GBoatZ, these are really helpful to me.
Going to try the mission again a bit later this eve, see if I can do better.
Al

Well, it went worse than last time, but I felt more in control.
I sank 2 enemy subs this time, although one did manage to sink a ship with missiles first.
Some bombers from East of Finland also sank another ship, due to some unfortunate timing with my CAP, which had no reserves due to a very active attempt at removing enemy AEW for a period.

I also lost a sub, to ASW helos after I went active with it while killing the enemy sub.

My bombers from Scotland were to be my main strike force on their surface fleet, but the enemy fleet seemed to be able to shoot them all down without damage (the missiles, the bombers were fine since i gained air superiority pretty well.
Any tips on how to make these runs more likely to work?

Anyway, I learnt a lot, so now to give it another try!

Really enjoying the game so far.

i've found that the best plan for me is to delay showing the flag for a big while I recon... and run southwest...

then when the time is right I move nw again.

I also immediately get the harriers all into AA setups because the sea eagles and range of the harrier just are not a winning combo. Bring one nimrod north for subs... get the rest armed with harpoons and do a tot with the bucs and nims

I agree with Dillon. You really need to keep out of the range of their surface fleet and subs. So a south-westerly or such course is best. At the same time this will bring the Soviets closer to your land based bombers. All this will take a while, so the first phase of your operation should mostly be a battle for air supremecy and a hunt for their subs. As Dillon said, use your Harriers strictly in an anti-air role.

I have one small difference; in that I kept two Nimrods hunting for subs in seperate patrl areas. But, hey, there is always flexibility in tactics.

When you get a chance, start looking your opponents units in the database. Check the types and ranges of the weapons they carry. This knowledge will help you in determining how aggressive you can be.

Have fun. [:)]

Interesting to see how others tackle this one. It definitely isn't a beginners scenario. I tend for RN side to try to get in the first attack with the subs, hoping I can survive the counter-attack. The torpedoes are a bit of a problem here as you need to fire from extremely close range.
Bear in mind at some stage you will also need to swap back to Sea Eagles with the Harriers, they aren't that easily stopped. I tend to think of the ASM's as a war of attrition, each Nimrod on patrol has to first take a snipe at the SAG, then patrol, some will eventually sneak through.

In the same way I think the subs need to unload theirs a long way out, before then getting into torpedo range.

It is interesting to see how others work it... that's for sure

I'm playing this scenario now and so far i'm finding it easy going. I have a day and 16 hours left and so far have shot down numerous soviet Tu-95's, Tu-16 and Tu-142's (recon, MPA) and these have been shot down far out enough to know that they didnt pick up my SAG on their radars- using Harriers from the Invincible also opting for what Zathras1 said in giving them all anti air roles. This is vitally important imo as you only have these 6 Harriers that are good enough to intercept enemy aircraft...although i did have one of my Nimrods on an ASW patrol shoot one bear down with a Sidewinder after it got so close and allowing it to engage opportunity targets. But i wouldnt count on Nimrods being able to prevent the Soviet recon patrols from picking up your SAG, so you need to be a bit thoughtful how you use your Harriers regarding when they should get off the deck to intercept their recon planes and bearing in mind quick turnaround sortie times/standdown times.

One Nimrod picked up an enemy sub with its MAD sensor and that was sunk after hitting it with 3 torpedoes (their subs have extra strong hulls). Then i had two flights of six Buccaneers with Sea Eagles and a flight of two Nimrods with Harpoons strike the Kiev of the enemy SAG. I found out which one was the Kiev after a long range recon patrol (Sea King AEW) picked up the enemy SAG on radar, and as the Kiev is a helicopter carrier with recon choppers (detected Ka-25's) i watched one Ka-25 to see which ship it landed on when it RTB'd so i knew which one was the Kiev and so then i created strike missions for my Buccaneers and Nimrods.

So they sunk the Kiev (which gives 500 points, all other ships just 100) and a Sovremmeny (think thats how u spell it) class destroyer which seemed too easy and it was due to the fact the enemy SAG werent emitting any radars and they had no AEW so they no air radar coverage at all which was crazy imo. The SAG were alerted to my Sea Eagles and Harpoons only when they went active at 5nm out. After the Kiev was hit by about 4 or so Sea Eagles it was destroyed and then the rest of the SAG managed to shoot down the rest of my Sea Eagles after automatically turning on their radars and jammers (as their ELINT detected the active radars of the Sea Eagles). But then i had 4 Harpoons inbound on the SAG which lagged behind the Sea Eagles as they were launched by the Nimrods that lagged behind the Buccaneers, and by this point the SAG switched off their radars so the same happened in that by the time my Harpoons went active, the SAG didnt have enough time to react and shoot down the Harpoons and they managed to sink the destroyer. I'm now on 800 points- Major Victory and as long as i can detect their subs before they can detect by SAG and prevent their recon planes from seeing my SAG then the victory is in the bag....but the major flaw for the soviets in this is having no air radar coverage, from AEW assets or not even from their SAG which makes it a bit too easy.

Also someone mentioned about keeping your harriers close enough to your AEW choppers to protect them as the soviets can pick them up with ELINT/RWR but i havent had that problem. No soviets have tried to intercept my AEW choppers and so far havent encountered a single soviet fighter or bomber- and i'd imagine the bombers cant strike my SAG as they dont know where it is.

Spoke too son. Two flights of three Backfires with AS-4 Kitchens managed to hit my carrier with one missile. Engines destroyed, mostly everything is damaged, a/c cant land or take off, major flooding and severe fire. Damage at 83% and rising..i've rebased two Harriers that were airborne to Lossiemouth but looks like the carrier is going down with everything else on it. Now i'm really in a war here and i also lost my auxiliary oiler ship but still their losses are greater than mine.

Now. How the hell did they know where my SAG was????

this is true.... "Also someone mentioned about keeping your harriers close enough to your AEW choppers to protect them as the soviets can pick them up with ELINT/RWR but i havent had that problem. No soviets have tried to intercept my AEW choppers and so far havent encountered a single soviet fighter or bomber- and i'd imagine the bombers cant strike my SAG as they dont know where it is."

it is always important to consider your positioning and battle space... use it as a tactical leverage... you can expand or contract the envelope to your advantage...

you dont have to leave things as the designer has them... i play in editor mode... looking at this .. i changed some loadouts and i rearranged many things.. i deleted all his strike missions and changed all the others... his formation was very odd... the aaw shooters were spread out way to much they could not cover the high value units well or or support each other efficiently... the asw platforms were way to tight and needed spreading out with the best one or two out in front.... with a formation one thing you should aspire for is... a defense in depth...

ive been shooting down his patrol aircraft with my patrol aircraft... which is pretty fun... one or two of them might make ace....

it is always important to consider your positioning and battle space... use it as a tactical leverage... you can expand or contract the envelope to your advantage...

Not sure what you mean how do i gain an advantage with positioning? and do you know how the Soviets knew where my SAG was? only thing i can think of is one of their subs' sonar has picked them up because i know for a fact that none of their recon patrols' surface search radars got anywhere near my SAG. If it was a sub that detected us then that must mean he isnt far from my SAG.

I designed the scenario years ago. Could of been anything but there are no helper units in the scenario.

Have you checked the game logs? You can open in notepad and search by contact name and most likely piece together the kill chain.bGive it a shot.

Mike

ORIGINAL: mikmyk

I designed the scenario years ago. Could of been anything but there are no helper units in the scenario.

Have you checked the game logs? You can open in notepad and search by contact name and most likely piece together the kill chain.bGive it a shot.

Mike

All i've been able to view up to now all the time i've been playing the game is the logs of the side i'm playing as unless its in editor mode for when i've been experimenting where i can switch sides and view each of their logs like that. But i dont want to do that as i'll be cheating and be able to see where their subs and other a/c are etc.

Unless what you're referring to with the notepad allows me to view only the logs of both sides without seeing where their forces are. But i think just to make sure i cant cheat in any way i'll just experiment with the editor on the soviet side after i've played the scenario to determine what it was that saw my SAG. They obviously saw it somehow so i could find out after with the editor i guess. My best guess is it was one of their subs.

ORIGINAL: cns180784

it is always important to consider your positioning and battle space... use it as a tactical leverage... you can expand or contract the envelope to your advantage...

Not sure what you mean how do i gain an advantage with positioning? and do you know how the Soviets knew where my SAG was? only thing i can think of is one of their subs' sonar has picked them up because i know for a fact that none of their recon patrols' surface search radars got anywhere near my SAG. If it was a sub that detected us then that must mean he isnt far from my SAG.

well... in this case the briefing indicates that the red forces intentions are to command the norwegian sea down to the approaches of the atlantic and north sea....

their surface group is a powerful force with great long range striking power that will be heavily supported by long range aviation.... blue is essentially a blocking force with moderate striking power supported buy long range aviation.... and some organic aviation with the Invincible group....

red is a superior force... they have the potential to destroy your group in one might blow.... however blue has two advantages... they have some fighter/interceptor's and can destroy reds patrol air assets and deny them the ability to locate or acquire a target grade solution on blue force... and... blue has a battle space of good depth that can be used to attenuate then defeat red force in a battle of attrition....

actually if i had my way... i would have have positioned the Invincible group on station around 200nm north of the shetland islands... farther south than its current placement... it would force red to extend themselves... it would burden the tempo of their air operations... while aiding the tempo with a higher sortie rate and enabling more efficient british air operations...

im going to guess that a sub located you... one thing i do at the start of a scenario is.. put all of my surface and sub surface units at creep... and change heading/depth etc... because sometimes designers park a sub near by or on your path of intended motion... i always get aew and asw assets out quickly....

command is a really good head game... thoughtful provocative... i really like it a lot... learning is part of the pleasure of it... i hope you really enjoy it..

ORIGINAL: cns180784

ORIGINAL: mikmyk

I designed the scenario years ago. Could of been anything but there are no helper units in the scenario.

Have you checked the game logs? You can open in notepad and search by contact name and most likely piece together the kill chain.bGive it a shot.

Mike

All i've been able to view up to now all the time i've been playing the game is the logs of the side i'm playing as unless its in editor mode for when i've been experimenting where i can switch sides and view each of their logs like that. But i dont want to do that as i'll be cheating and be able to see where their subs and other a/c are etc.

Unless what you're referring to with the notepad allows me to view only the logs of both sides without seeing where their forces are. But i think just to make sure i cant cheat in any way i'll just experiment with the editor on the soviet side after i've played the scenario to determine what it was that saw my SAG. They obviously saw it somehow so i could find out after with the editor i guess. My best guess is it was one of their subs.

I really don't care if you cheat or whatever. Just offering a way for you to determine what happened.

Thanks!

Mike

ORIGINAL: GBOATZ
Good luck to you and the more you play the better tactics you will develop. I know that I seem to learn something new with each game I play and believe me, it's humbling to realize how little I knew coming into this game after considering myself an expert at all versions of Harpoon! I think the phrase is: "It's what you learn after you think you know it all that counts." [:D]

A thousand times this; I have learnt so much from this game!

ORIGINAL: mikmyk

ORIGINAL: cns180784

ORIGINAL: mikmyk

I designed the scenario years ago. Could of been anything but there are no helper units in the scenario.

Have you checked the game logs? You can open in notepad and search by contact name and most likely piece together the kill chain.bGive it a shot.

Mike

All i've been able to view up to now all the time i've been playing the game is the logs of the side i'm playing as unless its in editor mode for when i've been experimenting where i can switch sides and view each of their logs like that. But i dont want to do that as i'll be cheating and be able to see where their subs and other a/c are etc.

Unless what you're referring to with the notepad allows me to view only the logs of both sides without seeing where their forces are. But i think just to make sure i cant cheat in any way i'll just experiment with the editor on the soviet side after i've played the scenario to determine what it was that saw my SAG. They obviously saw it somehow so i could find out after with the editor i guess. My best guess is it was one of their subs.

I really don't care if you cheat or whatever. Just offering a way for you to determine what happened.

Thanks!

Mike

Yea i see what you're saying of course i could check the logs on their side i appreciate that and i could then discover what it was that found my SAG. Its just if i did at this point as i'm still playing it, it could spoil it for me as then i could find out where their subs are and i'm enjoying the scenario and want to hopefully try and win it first time just through my strategy and tactics which for me is the most enjoyment i get from the game. Like after i won the Canarys Cage scenario on my first attempt which was by far the biggest scenario i tried i felt a real sense of achievement and found it rewarding lol.

Thanks for your help anyway.

ORIGINAL: magi

ORIGINAL: cns180784

it is always important to consider your positioning and battle space... use it as a tactical leverage... you can expand or contract the envelope to your advantage...

Not sure what you mean how do i gain an advantage with positioning? and do you know how the Soviets knew where my SAG was? only thing i can think of is one of their subs' sonar has picked them up because i know for a fact that none of their recon patrols' surface search radars got anywhere near my SAG. If it was a sub that detected us then that must mean he isnt far from my SAG.

well... in this case the briefing indicates that the red forces intentions are to command the norwegian sea down to the approaches of the atlantic and north sea....

their surface group is a powerful force with great long range striking power that will be heavily supported by long range aviation.... blue is essentially a blocking force with moderate striking power supported buy long range aviation.... and some organic aviation with the Invincible group....

red is a superior force... they have the potential to destroy your group in one might blow.... however blue has two advantages... they have some fighter/interceptor's and can destroy reds patrol air assets and deny them the ability to locate or acquire a target grade solution on blue force... and... blue has a battle space of good depth that can be used to attenuate then defeat red force in a battle of attrition....

actually if i had my way... i would have have positioned the Invincible group on station around 200nm north of the shetland islands... farther south than its current placement... it would force red to extend themselves... it would burden the tempo of their air operations... while aiding the tempo with a higher sortie rate and enabling more efficient british air operations...

im going to guess that a sub located you... one thing i do at the start of a scenario is.. put all of my surface and sub surface units at creep... and change heading/depth etc... because sometimes designers park a sub near by or on your path of intended motion... i always get aew and asw assets out quickly....

command is a really good head game... thoughtful provocative... i really like it a lot... learning is part of the pleasure of it... i hope you really enjoy it..

Very valid points there and good tactical considerations, i always get my aew and asw assets out asap too and in this scenario i've found the Harriers on my carrier to be significant in intercepting soviet recon patrols and seems to have gone down well so far but then they detected my SAG by another means most likely a sub and now, well...not far off disaster.
Looking back i should have started the scenario to get some distance between my SAG and theirs.
I knew from the briefing they had to be to the NE heading SW looking to pass through the GIUK gap out to the atlantic so i should have headed South like you said maybe 200nm off Shetlands. I never thought of that even though i did check on the weapons and sensors their forces have which blew me away...bad decision on my part to head straight for them where they would have subs out front screening their SAG. Despite finding and sinking one, i knew they would have at least one more and it seems we got too close and it picked us up...bugger. I'll continue playing the scenario now although it does look like my carrier is doomed. Heavy flooding, severe fire and they dont seem to be going down at all and damage is racking up. I'll lose all its AEW and ASW assets unless i can rebase them though i did manage to rebase two Harriers at Lossiemouth.

Next big decision for me is do i remove the carrier from the group and leave it to its fate which it most likely is gonna be at the bottom of the Norwegian sea, and move the rest of my SAG South? or do i keep the whole group in its current static location due to the fact all 4 engines on the carrier are destroyed which cant be repaired even if the flooding stops and fire is put out stopping the ship from sinking? even then most facilities, some sensors and i think weapons are at least lightly damaged and i'm fairly sure those that are more than lightly damaged cant be repaired at sea...only at a dock/pier which there is none in this scenario.

Oh buggery.

cns...

Well.... I would have to see an attachment to assess the condition of the rest of your group.... and where the strike came from.. their surface group.. an SSGN... or the air...?

The thing I noticed that I really didn't like at the beginning other than the position of the British group... Was design of the formation..... The aa shooters are spread out way to much with little ability of defense in depth to defeat a serious strike... And ASW ships are set up way to close.. minimizing their chance of detecting subs before they get target solutions to launch missiles/ torpedoes......

What I think would be interesting for you to do is..... To go into editor mode... load a save game previous to the incoming strike.... Reorganize your formation.. Bringing your shooters in... One of the best ones within a few nm's of the invincible... a couple others on estimated primary threat axis of in coming strike... Set on fixed stations.... establishing a air defense in depth....

The two best ASW ships with towed array sonar out front on sprint and drift.. on relative stations..... The rest in as closer ASW screens......

It will interesting to see if a better formation allows you to survive the strike and possibly pick up the red sub.....